The day after (miami)

[ManzaRek]

Hi vince, greetings from italy, i'm very proud to have a chance to talk with you.
The last month i've seen the first gig of ray and robbie in pistoia and the problems by the organizers of the festival that had taken lightly as an event to Pistoia and interruption of the concert made ​​me think back to Miami, I wanted gently to know how you did it to retrieve the equipment after the concert in miami and if it was damaged.
Sorry for my poor english.
thanks a lot if you will me reply.

[vince]

Hello:

Your English is not bad. I understand every word of your question and that is all that counts.

We had to work carefully to get the amps off the stage as the rear right section had collapsed. We passed the Big amps off tto the side and got that area cleared first. Next was John's drum set which was teetering because two legs of his riser were on the collapsed part of the main deck. After we removed and boxed all that we reverted to our usual routine of cords, instruments and them amps. These went into a truck and, with the help of the band boys working with us, it was taken care of short order.

That place was steaming hot, very humid and there were clothes all over the place left behind by the kids who had stripped naked. I have always wondered what they told their parents when arriving home without cloths at all, or partially dressed, perhaps in someone elses clothes that they grabbed up off the floot.

By the time we had done, the cleaning up crew had made a pile of clothing about 5' high and 8 to 10 feet across.

After the show one of the boys suggested a resteraunt and we all had a nice dinner and relaxed. No one knew of the coming storm. Everyone did admit that it was a rather bizzare event.

Take care - Do write again.

Vince

[ManzaRek]

Many thanks for your reply vince..

[Roughie]

Hi Vince,

Really quick question, it has been said that The Doors had beers with the police after the Miami concert. Did this really happen?

Thanks.

[vince]

Regards the police and beers. I am aware that police in miami are subject to - "Payments". The policeman, whose hat was tossed into the autience did go to the dressing room after the show. Jim appologiesed to him and I believe Bill Siddons offered to pay for the hat. The officer was not angry, joked about the incident and refused the payment. Apparently he was in no way offended and thought it all in good fun. Remember that this fellow was on stage during the performance. He was NOT among the witnesses called to testify against Jim in the trial if I recall correctly.

It is likely that there was beer in the dressing room. Whether the police would have been offered one, only Bill or one of the guys would be able to answer. The police attending the affair would be off-duty, hired to comply with Miami security regulations. They most certainly COULD have accepted without breaking rules. After all, the event was over and the halll was empty.

While all this was going on we were trying to rescue the equipment from the collapsing stage.

I wish I could confirm or deny this incident. You understand that while we were working on stage, and this charade was passing in the dressing room, elsewhere the storm clouds were gathering.

[Roughie]

Regards the police and beers. I am aware that police in miami are subject to - "Payments". The policeman, whose hat was tossed into the autience did go to the dressing room after the show. Jim appologiesed to him and I believe Bill Siddons offered to pay for the hat. The officer was not angry, joked about the incident and refused the payment. Apparently he was in no way offended and thought it all in good fun. Remember that this fellow was on stage during the performance. He was NOT among the witnesses called to testify against Jim in the trial if I recall correctly.

It is likely that there was beer in the dressing room. Whether the police would have been offered one, only Bill or one of the guys would be able to answer. The police attending the affair would be off-duty, hired to comply with Miami security regulations. They most certainly COULD have accepted without breaking rules. After all, the event was over and the halll was empty.

While all this was going on we were trying to rescue the equipment from the collapsing stage.

I wish I could confirm or deny this incident. You understand that while we were working on stage, and this charade was passing in the dressing room, elsewhere the storm clouds were gathering.

Thanks again for your reply. We all appreciate the time you take to answer all of our questions.

[universalmind69]

Messages in Korean and Chinese sounds like fun...

[sore & crucified]

Hi Vince,

The policeman whose hat was taken by Jim and eventually tossed into the audience was Officer Richard D. Flaum (badge #741). He did testify at Jim's trial on Tuesday, Aug. 25 in the afternoon session.

Under direct examination by the State, he was shown 5 photographs - two in which he identified himself and another in which he identified his hat by the badge number (maybe the one we've seen with Jim wearing).

Under cross-exam by Max Fink, Flaum admitted that up in the dressing room after the show he was compensated for his hat by someone other than Morrison. He admitted that he used the money to buy a new hat at a store called Donald Levigne's. Ray's also testified that the Doors manager (Siddons, of course) gave Flaum money to compensate him for the hat up in the dressing room after the show.

Vince, were you there in the dressing room when the transaction took place? I am just wondering why your recollection is different from what was testified to at trial.

I am also curious as to why Jim's defense team did not have you testify to the fact that you came on stage and held Jim pants up. Leading up to trial did you have any conversations with Max Fink or Jim about possibly testifying on his behalf?

Do you agree with the concert "reconstruction" in the article by Rainer Moddemann (http://www.cjfishlegacy.com/miamiconcertarticle.html)? According to Moddemann, you went onstage and held Jim's pants up during the band's attempts at Touch Me. Was it your actions that prompted Jim to say "I'm not gonna take this shit. I'm coppin' out. Now wait a minute. Bullshit!"

I haven't yet gotten through all 2000 pages of trial transcript, but from what I have read so far nobody (not even Ray) testified at Jim's trial that someone came up behind Jim and held onto his pants. Was the band in the middle of a song when you came on stage? Was it before, during or after LMF?
Was it during the end of the show when there were quite of few members of the audience on stage that might have obscured Jim from the audience?

Also, can you tell us about when Jim either jumped, fell or got pushed off stage. How long after (or was it before?)you were on stage with Jim did he go into the audience? Was the concert basically over before he went into the audience? Did he get back up on stage or was he escorted directly up to the balcony/dressing room from the audience area?

Thanks for any recollections you can provide,
Mike

[vince]

Lotsa questions on this one.

There are two points to be made again. If you note in my last response, I states clearly that I was NOT in the dressing room but on stage trying to prevent the amps and equipment from sliding off the collapsing right rear section. I was TOLD about the dressing room details much later.

It was my recollection, over an incident 41 years ago, that he rejected the offer of compensation. Siddons was the one who offered money. The point here is that he was not angry, he took it all as a joke and the meeting in the dressing room was not one of confrontation but rather of a friendly gathering. That was one more reason why it was such a shock when the arrest warrant was issued.

Note that this man did not claim to see Jim expose any private parts.

As Road Manager I was always on stage. At no time during a performance did I have to "Go On Stage" I was there. If someone suggests that I "Went on stage..." then it is their version that does not agree.

When Jim suggested that the audience should get naked, "Let's see a little skin" Ray was afraid that he would follow through. Ray said to me, "Vince, Vince, don't let him take his pants off." At which point I stepped up on John's drum platform, down onto the stage and walked up bnehind Jim and put my fingers through the belt loops on his pants and lifted. That is when he hit the high note.

At no time did jim make any attempt to lower his pants. I felt neither a loosening of the waitband, nor downward pressure. When he completed the song I returned to my original position.

Yes, Max Fink did discuss the situation with detail, asking me to describe the incident and then asking additional questions about points I did not touch upon. I was not asked to go to Florida, much less speak on behalf of Jim's defense.

Yes, I was asked by both Robby and Ray what happened when I was holding Jim's pants - did he struggle, did he try to pull downward, did he undo the top fastening of his pants to loosen them. the answer was and is - No.

Each of the Doors saw me go to Jim. Each of them Heard Ray request that I do so. Only those in the audience who were not busy removing their clothing, would see me as a sort of shadow behind Jim. The stage was illuminated by a spotlight almost directly at chest height. It was either light or shadow.

Jim was pushed off stage by the promotor. He landed on his feet in the audience and went to the dressinbg room. He was followed by Ray, John and Robby. The show ended with Jim being pushed off the stage.

Make no mistake. Jim did not walk down the steps, jump or otherwise leave the stage at his decision. The promotor was a bad guy who cheated the Doors out of a lot of money and had a bad reputation in the first place. Siddons never shoould have booked with him - he had already cheated other groups before us. It should not have come with a shock that he fully intended to cheat teh Doors.

The contract called for 8000 seats. Instead by actual counters at the doors, there were more than 13000 people in that place during the show.

The funny part of all this - Jim was drunk. there is no denying this. But he never showed anything except his upper body which, at that time, was beginning to fall apart. Yest there were likely 6 to 8 thousand naked kids in the audience. I mean, NAKED.

When the show was over there was a pile of clothing about 5 feet high and nearly 8 to 10 feet across left over from what these kids shed. There was no attempt to stop, detain, arrest, prosecute, harrass, ridicule, or otherwise interfere with kids who must have left that place still without clothes - they were on the floor. I have always wondered what a kid would say when he walked into his house with his altogethers hanging loose to be confronted by Mommy -
"Michael, where are your clothes?
"Gee, Mom, I left them at the Dinner Key Auditorium."
" What have you been doing?"
"Just breaking on through, Mom".

Why does my version disagree with others? I don't think it would or should except for parts where I was not a witness - such as the events in the dressing room and the confrontation that must have taken place in the office upon their return to L.A. One might also suggest that some Versions, might be from people's recollections. I was there and I am telling it first hand, without interpretation as clearly as memory will allow.

The records were pulled from stores all across the country. All radio play time stopped and 19 performances were cancelled. We did not perform again until Bill Graham and the Belkin Brothers took a chance. Even then arrest warrants were in the hands of police captains standing just off stage - just in case.

If you mention discrepancies in recollections, consider those Max Fink recordings. Against all evidence and statements, Max is alleged to have stated that Jim exposed himself.

I hope this covers it. As for the dressing room scene, that is but a minor incident in a major disaster.

[cutis]

The promotor was a bad guy who cheated the Doors out of a lot of money and had a bad reputation in the first place. Siddons never shoould have booked with him - he had already cheated other groups before us. It should not have come with a shock that he fully intended to cheat the Doors.

Thanks for the feedback, Vince. If it's one thing that bugs me about the whole Miami incident, it's that Bill Siddons never comes across in any interviews he's given or none that I've ready anyway as acknowledging his own "rookie" mistakes as a manager of a rock band. He definitely made a few mistakes when he managed the Doors, and in particular, managing an artist like Jim Morrison. Miami was indeed completely avoidable, and Jim being drunk actually had very little to do with what happened in Miami given he planned the whole act in the first place before going on stage. Being drunk gave him a good excuse to be provocative that night. But in truth, Bill made the mistake of starting a tour with a very shady promoter for a band that was at the height of the popularity when he easily could have started the '69 tour in cities like San Francisco, LA, or even New York. The entire Doors fracas of '69 could have been easily avoided. And even if Jim had decided to be drunk and provocative, he could have easily gotten away with what he pulled in Miami at any of these other cities and there never would have been a lawsuit filed against him. Ah, Bill Siddons, you really do need to take responsibility for some of the mistakes you made as manager of the Doors.

[vince]

Hi

This is a general comment regards Bill SIddons.

The reasons he was selected as manager were many. First, they guys knew him. He had been working with them for nearly all of 1967. Second, Bill was honest. At least they trusted him to do the all important ticket count and the final calculations of payment for the performance. Third, and very important, he knew many of the promotors we would work with in future. Wirking with these people involves trust and confidence. Must of the entertainment industry in those days was based on "Gentlemen's Agreements".Offers for, and accemptance of, performances were made by telegram. Yes, there were contracts but these were signed not long before the actual performance. Another point, Bill also knew the hall managers. Getting along with these people is paramont to having a good show, proper lighting and stage equipment and security. Perhaps the most important point was his masllability. Bill had no status as many of the other managers did. He was told what to do by the Doors. He did it or he was at the butt end of their anger. More than once he was fined for his actions. But they wanted someone they could control.

As some or most of you know I put in a bid for the manager's job. I was rejected without prejudice. All of the above were given the reason but the most important was that they were not sure they could control me and second, since I had proved to be so efficient at handling, servicing and maintaining the equipment. they did not want to go through the uncertainties they experienced while Bill was trying to be jack of all trades on the road. I make clear, I did not care. They made their choice and I was satisfied with the outcome. I gave every bit of co-operation possible to support Bill. I wish the feelings and support had been mutual.

OK, That siad, yes, Bill did make mistakes, florida not being the least. Perhaps the worst was bringing the newspapres to Jim in the hospital on the day after Amsterdam. Jim found out that day that he was no longer necesary for the success of the group. I think that Jim's dislike of Bill was contributory to his rebel attitude. Bill treated Jim like a spoiled brat on some occasions, and a disciplinarian at other times. Jim did not take well to this attitude and I think Jim was a Bad Boy on stage just to show Bill who was boss.

Now, In defense of Bill, He was young. he had no real experience in handling people - especially temperamental personalities. Bill was a sharp businessman. He did, for the most part, manage the business fairly well. Unfortunately as the Doors rose in importance Bill's ego swelled corrospondingly. It made him arrogant and on occasion offensive. He alienated Bill Graham on more than one occasion. Bill did not take it lightly. He complained directly to Robby. As you all know, mud slides downhill. Bill tried to do a good job. I would give him pretty high marks overall. That there was a feeling of insecurity in his position was understandable. I know not what the basis for him emnity towards me originated from - aside from my bid for The Job. I gave him no cause for ill will, now did I ever interfere with his job or decisions. Even when I did not agree, I did my job without comment. I never went behind his back and carried stories to Robby.

Miami - Yes, Bill made a horrible mistake. He felt that, thought the promotors had cheated several other groups they would not dare to cheat a group as important as the Doors. The promotors basically thumbed their noses at him. They defied the Musicians Union Rep. and the Booking agent. But likely the worst of this incident was Bill's attitude toward Jim afterward. Not very polite or respectful of his employer. It also added to Jim's hostility.

I guess that is about the story from my point of view. I say this as a caveat. In fact, Bill should present his own side of the stry. In the end, he was not a bad guy. He tried to do his best for they Group - that was in his best interest because he negotiated a contract that gave him bonus pay based on the Doors performances. You can imagine the loss he suffered with the elimination of 19 performances at the peak of the Doors earning period.

You know what is really funny. Today a group gets paid more for dressing room perks than the Doors got for performances. The industry has a lot less to do with music than pagentry and gadgetry. The sound levels are enough to deafen a stone. People don't seem to understand, dsepite numerous warnings, that these high Db sound systems can cause permanent, progressive hearing loss. When I designed the Doors system I felt that clarity was far more important. That facet alone would make the sound carry about as far as necessary.

Well, that is another story.

Take care

[MortSahlFan]

The promotor was a bad guy who cheated the Doors out of a lot of money and had a bad reputation in the first place. Siddons never shoould have booked with him - he had already cheated other groups before us. It should not have come with a shock that he fully intended to cheat the Doors.

Thanks for the feedback, Vince. If it's one thing that bugs me about the whole Miami incident, it's that Bill Siddons never comes across in any interviews he's given or none that I've ready anyway as acknowledging his own "rookie" mistakes as a manager of a rock band. He definitely made a few mistakes when he managed the Doors, and in particular, managing an artist like Jim Morrison. Miami was indeed completely avoidable, and Jim being drunk actually had very little to do with what happened in Miami given he planned the whole act in the first place before going on stage. Being drunk gave him a good excuse to be provocative that night. But in truth, Bill made the mistake of starting a tour with a very shady promoter for a band that was at the height of the popularity when he easily could have started the '69 tour in cities like San Francisco, LA, or even New York. The entire Doors fracas of '69 could have been easily avoided. And even if Jim had decided to be drunk and provocative, he could have easily gotten away with what he pulled in Miami at any of these other cities and there never would have been a lawsuit filed against him. Ah, Bill Siddons, you really do need to take responsibility for some of the mistakes you made as manager of the Doors.

The only thing I'll say is that no one knew it would happen in Miami, but with Florida being kind of his home state, I'm sure he thought a lot about things, and that could have been it. He talks about being from there, going to school, then getting smart and going to California. Too bad this conversation is 8 years old - I don't think the Miami concert (audio) was on YouTube then.

[LaurelCanyon]

A thread of 11 years ago, I read it again with great interest. It promises a lot of Vince's forthcoming book. Well detailed!