How was the vibe?

[wha happened]

Hey Vince,

What was the atmosphere like during the '71-'72 tours? I'm guessing it was lighter with the feeling of a heavy cloud being lifted since the boys didn't have to worry what condition their singer would be in by show time. And they didn't have to worry about what would happen during the concert. Thus being able to concentrate on the music. Do you think the fans left generally satisfied or disappointed? Were there good times or was it just another pay day?
Or do you think they did those tours to try and prove they can do it without Morrison? After listening to recordings from that era, the shows aren't THAT bad, they had their moments. The set lists seemed pretty standard night after night with only slight variations. I miss the Morrison era when no 2 shows, even matinee & evening, weren't the same. Of course nothing could touch the Doors in their prime 67-68 and I'm not trying to compare the 66-70 period with 71-72, it's apples and oranges.

[thewallsscreamedpoetry]

The tours met with quite a lot of success to be honest and were pretty well received by both audience and media with one or two exceptions.
The set lists were indeed interesting as not ONE Morrison song was ever played by the 3 man Doors between 1971 and 1972.
I had a chance to go see them in 1972 at Newcastle City Hall but foolishly thought without Morrison it would be crap.....wish I'd gone now....
Plenty of bootlegs knocking around of the post Jim Doors to give you a flavour of a typical 3 man Door night..........not bad really!

[vince]

in 1972 the sound of the "Doors" had changed. It was nothing like the original. Bootleg tapes not with standing - the group was not 3 people.

priot to the 1972 Other Voices tour, we got Ray a compact version of the Hammond B-3 which Ray wanted to the Blues sound.

They added another guitarist and a bass player.

There was no more piano bass and no more Kalamazoo

The composition of theban was changed, The instrumentation was changed and the sound was changed. You could not hear what the 3 man band sounded like

[Sagittaire]

so you agree it was crap ?

[mojo]

We can't say crap, they did 1 or 2 greats songs. Well, we can say; not terrible!

[TheDoorsMusic]

Without Morrison, the doors aren't the doors.

[Sagittaire]

Without Morrison, the doors aren't the doors.

That's pretty much about it to me yeah.

[vince]

The decisison to change the composition of the group was made even before Jim left for Paris. Songs were rehearsed quality during the summer. I can tell you that no matter what they were doing the impact of the news of Jim's death was very great.

When we went to full scale rehearsals in late summer, I knew that the Doors were closed. It was good. Make no mistake about it. But it was not the same sound and it did not have the sparkle that the 4 guys did. It hink it was a bit unweildy. It was not the intimate style that the 4 of them had. I can not understand why they wanted to add another guitar. That made the group like any other. It also makes for duplication of melody or harmony lines rather that the contrpuntal style of the early music.

It was not "Crap" as one put it. But it most certainly was not the Doors. One thing though, Ray and Robby did a pretty good job of the vocals. Where we did not have to worry about an unpredictable and volitile singer, we did lose the more normal part of his insanity.

There you go.

[Mystery Train]

thanks for the reply vince, great to read from you again!

you said the decision about the new composition, say no more jim, was made before he left for paris. did the 4 speak about that or was it more like a silent agreement between john, ray and robby? because to me it seems like jim was planning on continuing with them.

[vince]

The decision was really made after Isle of Wright. The Three had made the decision not to appear in public with Jim after that debacle. The did want to continue the relationship based on composition, recording and other activities not relating to public performances.

Jim as we all know, as drained of energy by the trial, constant bickering with Pam and his financial worries. He had boxed himself into a corner with the drinking, drigs, and escalating erratic behavior. He just wanted off the "Fast Track". It is unfortunate that Paris afforded him the greater opportunity for self destruction.

I think that had he remained in LA, he would have been occupied with further writings, possible involvement with development of new music with the guys and a few personal appearances in town. He was without restraint in Paris and "Idle hands most certainly made work for the ...Pam"

We know that Jim did profess to want to return to LA and again be involved with music making. Jim, as far as I know, was not aware of the development of the Fall Tour. I did nto even know until final rehearsals and the logistics arrangements and equipment changes were made final.

I was not informed of the future plans when they decided after New Orleans, to close all public performances. Remember that N.O. was a final test of Jim's ability to behave and he failed.

I was told in January to put the equipment into working order, put it in storage, apply for unemployment and make as much money as I could. Truck, Gas card and equipment were at my disposal if I could do sound work. But whatever I did - DO NOT get a permanent job. AND - stay in touch every week. That is all I knew.

Jim did not know of the new "Group" before he left for Paris. Whether or not someone who overheard someone telling someon that he.she had heard.... we will never know. I have wondered about this and whether or not it prompted Jim to make that last call to John and test John's reaction to his proposal. Who knows.

Thanks for the post.

[J.B.Marx]

Jim did not know of the new "Group" before he left for Paris. Whether or not someone who overheard someone telling someon that he.she had heard.... we will never know. I have wondered about this and whether or not it prompted Jim to make that last call to John and test John's reaction to his proposal. Who knows.

Thanks for the post.

Now this is very interesting. I have never thought about it that way...

[Mystery Train]

i think it is probably the case that jim tested joh on the phone. maybe jim thought that john would be honest with him? i mean as far as i know, jim called john and said some like "hey, hows the record doing bla bla, would be cool to tour with this material, wouldn't it john?" and john goes kinda "uh yeah, ehh, yes, ehh, why not....okay, bye, take care man."

so jim was no idiot. maybe he sensed it. he had to call john (or robby?). i guess ray could have not told thruth? but hey, i'm not in a position to blame anybody. but i think that if jim did find out that they were planning going on without him, he must have been very hurt not getting to know from the 3 guys, very very hurt.

[vince]

Jim well knew of the dissatisfaction of the Three with his performance at the Isle. He knew they would not go on the road with him again. That was what New Orleans was all about. AS we all know, he failed the test miserably. Not just miserably - deliberately. He was druk before he came there and got drunker before the show. Hr esd in such a state he forgot the words to Light... That is what triggered the deck smashing incident.

John was furious and stated before he left the stage - "I'll never play with that asshole again" Ray and Robby said nothing at that time but just left the stage following John. It was a bad day for all.

With that black cloud hanging over the remainder of their time together, they completed LA woman. Jim knew, when he left ofr Paris that there were no more road shows in the offing.

Though we know little of the reality of his stay in Paris, he certainly knew he was wasting his time and scarce money. As I mentioned before - he was really running from the reality, and fear, of the outcome of the appeals and likely his lifestyle with the various parasites that were sucking his cash and well being. He took 3 people to paris with two of them returning

I do not believe that Jim was aware of the plans for Other Voices. It was well guarded for obvious reasons but still, people did frequent the office and tongues can wag. The fact that the Group was rehearsing was well guarded but not unnoticed. Even I made my weekly visits to make sure things were OK and they did not want for supplies.

That rumopr of the Boys activities would inevitably get back to Jim even inn Paris. He was not isolated there. But that planned road trip would have been another story.

There is one more angle in this polygon. Bill SIddons, Bruce Botnick and the Boys had to prepare a schedule of events with cariuos promotors. If ever there was a leak, that is where it came from. With all the contacts between promotors and the office and the staff of the various promotos, lead time adverts, something had to get out somewhere along the line.

As I said, I think Jim might have heard it through the 6 link theory. That may have triggered the call. John was courteous and friendly - as John would always be and likely the tone of that response was just enough to let Jim know that the Doors were closed.

Here is another one. We have all specualted about the how and why of Jim's death. How about - "This is the end, my friend the end..."

The Bathing ritual was not an accident....???

Consider the possibilities.

Thanks for the response and interest.

VInce

[jim4371]

If he did kill himself, I think he must have been moved to the bathtub, because he was found with his head on the faucet end, not the open end, which would have been quite uncomfortable.
One presumes that with a suicide, they'd like to minimize the discomfort, right?

It is an intriguing idea, but I think the fact that he and The Doors pretty much knew it was over before he even left would not have left an opening for that type of revelation to crush his spirit, unless his relationship with Pamela was severely soured somehow.

[Porsche]

If he did kill himself, I think he must have been moved to the bathtub, because he was found with his head on the faucet end, not the open end, which would have been quite uncomfortable.

Really? Where did you hear about that? I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering where you got the info.
I've always leaned toward the accidental overdose story myself.

[jim4371]

If he did kill himself, I think he must have been moved to the bathtub, because he was found with his head on the faucet end, not the open end, which would have been quite uncomfortable.

Really? Where did you hear about that? I'm not saying you're wrong, just wondering where you got the info.
I've always leaned toward the accidental overdose story myself.

Which part?
The suicide or the head near the faucet?

[Porsche]

The head near the faucet part.

[jim4371]

I've been hearing that for years.
It's in the documentary too, with the fireman.

Here's the bathroom, the faucet is behind him.
I have few doubts that he was carried head first into the bathroom and placed in the tub.

[what_A_trip67-71]

this would explain why while in Paris, some report that Jim was optimistic about heading back to the Doors and other report that Jim had no interest in returning. Those who heard him say that he wanted to rejoin the Doors could have heard this earlier in his trip before he recieved a hint that they were going on without him. After he caught a wiff of this, no doubt his position would have changed.

Just a theory, like everything else here. 8)

[J.B.Marx]

Maybe he was just too far out of it that any position was comfortable for him at that time?

[cutis]

If he did kill himself, I think he must have been moved to the bathtub, because he was found with his head on the faucet end, not the open end, which would have been quite uncomfortable.
One presumes that with a suicide, they'd like to minimize the discomfort, right?

It is an intriguing idea, but I think the fact that he and The Doors pretty much knew it was over before he even left would not have left an opening for that type of revelation to crush his spirit, unless his relationship with Pamela was severely soured somehow.

Jim's body was put in the bathtub. Pam freaked out whenever she first discovered Jim dead. He either was brought back to the apartment having OD'd at a night club that night or he OD'd at the apartment, Pam freaked, called friends, body was placed in bathtub and the rest was history....

What's not undestood is why Jim gave such a lethargic performance at Isle of Wight and why he totally F-up at New Orleans. Why did Jim do this? What were the demons inside of him prodding him to let down the band and put an end to what he loved to do most? Whatever Vince may say, I have to believe Jim was burned out by performing live. Nothing more complicated than that. He was tired of it and wanted to move on. No need to be so bitter at Jim if he wanted OUT from the Doors. It's not like he had such close friendships with any of the boys. His best friends were not Ray, John, or Robbie.

I doubt Jim felt let down by the band when he was in Paris. It was his choice to leave LA. Why should he feel hurt by talk of the band forming again without him?? I doubt if he had stayed in LA he would have lived much longer anyway.

[vince]

His relationship with Pam, at that time, was not too good. Remember they had been bickering. He went out alone and returned alone, if I remember correctly. AS for which end - hard to tell what he might have been doing. Suicide or not, why would he be sitting at the faucet end. Rather inconvenient to control the water when you have to have the arms of an octopuss to get at the faucets. It is a thought. One of many I am sure. Even then just taking a bath - one like to submerge and blow bubbles. Or look at the ceiling through the shimmer of the water.

Jim did know that ROAD PERFORMANCES were at an end. However, they guys made it clear that they would continue to make records with him. He was not out of the group. The group, as a whole, would not make public performances with Jim as the singer. The partnership was not broken. The activities of the partnership were restricted.

If there is any possibility of a shortened life one must consider that Jim kept mentioning that he would not life to be old. He did not want to. He was in financial difficulties. He was faced with being someone's punki in a Florida prision. He was not having a good time with Pam. He still had a lot of parasites he was supporting in bars and restaurants, not to mention his own considerable expenses. He was not a happy person. He was going no where fast. His physical and mental position was not good.

We can make many propositions but the truth is hidden by time, death and self interest.

The real story will never be known.

Vince

[StrangeNightOfStone]

The decisison to change the composition of the group was made even before Jim left for Paris. Songs were rehearsed quality during the summer. I can tell you that no matter what they were doing the impact of the news of Jim's death was very great.

When we went to full scale rehearsals in late summer, I knew that the Doors were closed. It was good. Make no mistake about it. But it was not the same sound and it did not have the sparkle that the 4 guys did. It hink it was a bit unweildy. It was not the intimate style that the 4 of them had. I can not understand why they wanted to add another guitar. That made the group like any other. It also makes for duplication of melody or harmony lines rather that the contrpuntal style of the early music.

It was not "Crap" as one put it. But it most certainly was not the Doors. One thing though, Ray and Robby did a pretty good job of the vocals. Where we did not have to worry about an unpredictable and volitile singer, we did lose the more normal part of his insanity.

There you go.

The thing that strikes me about the Other Voices and Full Circle albums, and concerts promoting them was Jim's absense left such a glaring vacume- there is no denying that the man had tremndous presence- and without jim- they just weren't the Doors.
That being said- the instrumentatiion of some of the songs were superb- ships with sails was gorgous.
I applaud them for carrying on the torch, but without Jim, it wasn't the same....Since the instrumentaion was changes around a bit- thery should have gotten a new singer (with all due respect to ray and Robby- they are not particularly good vocalists), and changed the band name.