Hi Vince~What are your feelings on the new group "The D

[windchime]

Hello Vince,

I was just wondering what you feeling were about the reuiniting of The Doors (without John) with new lead singer Ian Astbury? Ray Manzarek even compares Ian to Jim saying quote: "He has that Celtic/Christian thing Jim had, and he has that dark Shaman thing. He has that power man. He is not imitating Jim, but he is coming form the same place." The one thing that gets me is Ian wears the black leather, boots, and even dark sunglasses and often has his hair cut as Jim's was in the heyday? JOhn of course is angered by it saying "If they miss playing music together, jst call the band something else. John is quoted as saying "If I learned anything from Jim, it's respect for what we have created."

What are your thoughts if any?

Thanks Vince~

[vince]

Well - I suspect that you are speaking of the group that formed, created quite a stir resulting an cross civil suits and ending the brief careers of those involved - at least under the Doors name. I assume they are now knows and Riders on the storm.

There can be no "Reunion", revival, restoration of the Doors without John. We know Jim is dead and there is justification for his replacements. From what I have heard about this substitute, he is being built up as the re-incarnation of Jim with a different face. To bad he cannot have enough confidence to be himself and not involve the most blatant of Jim's X symbols.

I have not heard the music, recordings or performances live or otherwise.

They are NOT the Doors. It is Ray and Robby playing music together and some of this was written, arranged and performed when the Doors as a group existed. Now, the style has changed, the sound has changed and the majority of the group has changed

It is NOT the Doors and I side with John on that point.

That they enjoy playing the music they are famous for, enjoy (As do we all) and anything else you want to say is fine - but this new band on the block is not now and will never be a resemblance to the original group until John is part of it and they stop with the theatrical singers who are "Celtic/Christian shamen. Here we go again. Seems like we know the source of the Shaman myth.

Is not Celtic/Christian and oxymoron?

The Doors have closed - Long Live the Doors.

[windchime]

Well - I suspect that you are speaking of the group that formed, created quite a stir resulting an cross civil suits and ending the brief careers of those involved - at least under the Doors name. I assume they are now knows and Riders on the storm.

There can be no "Reunion", revival, restoration of the Doors without John. We know Jim is dead and there is justification for his replacements. From what I have heard about this substitute, he is being built up as the re-incarnation of Jim with a different face. To bad he cannot have enough confidence to be himself and not involve the most blatant of Jim's X symbols.

I have not heard the music, recordings or performances live or otherwise.

They are NOT the Doors. It is Ray and Robby playing music together and some of this was written, arranged and performed when the Doors as a group existed. Now, the style has changed, the sound has changed and the majority of the group has changed

It is NOT the Doors and I side with John on that point.

That they enjoy playing the music they are famous for, enjoy (As do we all) and anything else you want to say is fine - but this new band on the block is not now and will never be a resemblance to the original group until John is part of it and they stop with the theatrical singers who are "Celtic/Christian shamen. Here we go again. Seems like we know the source of the Shaman myth.

Is not Celtic/Christian and oxymoron?

The Doors have closed - Long Live the Doors.

Thanks for the reply Vince. I have not listened to any of the recordings or performances of this "group". Although I do not know John or any of the others involved, it seems John is the only one that seems to get it. I did read his book "Riders on the Storm" and he really seemed to care deeply for Jim in spite of their love/hate relationship at times that he writes about.

Ray (I read his book as well, what a waste of my time) and he seems like a total flake to me??? I could be wrong, I simply go by his written word as well as recent interviews I have seen with him. I agree that he seesm to perpetuate this Shaman issue as well as many other things. I also find it hilarious that he actually said the Christian/Celtic comment as it is an oxymoron. I wish that Ray and Robby would have more respect for what The Doors were/are than to bring some unknown up there to try and emulate someone that can never be replaced.

I have a treamendous amount of respect for John Densmore and was quite impressed with not only his book, but his actions in trying to protect Jim's memory and that of the work The Doors did together. I also like some of the new work that John is doing that is not being pressed fourth on the back of being a member of The Doors. I would never listen to or buy into what Ray is trying to sell (he seems like the salesman of this "new group"). Sad that someone would sell out two freinds and former bandmates to make a buck.

I am with you. The Doors have close - Long live The Doors.

Thanks Vince~

[Joriki]

Hey Vince,
I totally find your perspective on the doors beyond refreshing, however I do want to say I saw Riders on the storm(then doors of the twenty first century) about two and a half years ago in los Angeles at the universal ampitheatre. I was born in 1968(about three days after the Singer Bowl Riots) so of course, I never got to see them. Anyway, all I knew of them, was books, videos and albums(then Cd's.)
I think Ray is pretty ridiculous with a lot that he says about Morrison and the Doors. However, I must say, it was quite a joy hearing the Doors songs performed in a large acoustically designed ampitheatre. As I'm sure that you can attest to, part of the magic was the sound of the Doors, and that is probably only recreateable to a limited extent on a stereo. It was completely refreshing and brand new to hear those songs performed in a big ampitheatre and played so loud the music reverberated through your entire body. I didn't really think Ian Astbury was mimicking morrison, he is a talented singer and performer. He was just performing the songs and having a good time. I'm all for what you are doing and saying, but I'm not so mindless that I'll not admit to having really enjoyed the evening. It was completely harmless fun. Astbury's whole attitude is we don't not perform Mozart cause he's dead, so let's perform the Doors music, appreciate it and enjoy it. It was one of the more enjoyable rock concerts I've ever been to. That said I'd probably trade 90% of them to have sen the doors, but it was a really fun show.

[vince]

Let us listen to Mozart because he is dead. Let us listen to the Doors because they are dead.

If we can have a substitute pianist playing the Mozart concertos then I think it only fair that we can have a substitute singer - and orchestra - restore our image of teh Doors as well.

Are we OK so Far??

There is a difference that appears at this point. The pianist does not dress like or act like Mozart.

Why should the singer thry to dress like Morrison. I agree that it is essential that the orchestra should sound exactly like the original orchestration. After all, as you so aptly pointed out, that is what made them unique - that "Different Orchestration" that made the music special.

Acting like Morrison - OK the Pianist acts like Mozart as well.

There is a line between presenting the performance of Doors music in the original and presentation by a currently active group.

All the notes must be there as originally scored and all the words must be as Jim or whomever wrote them. The inflection to tonalities and other subtleties should be there as well. But the clothes, the hair the????

Can't Jow Smith be Joe Smith and provide his own interpretation of the original rather than trying to slavishly copy Morrison to the last detail?

No one will recreate Jim. He was an individual, unique. He has his style, image. Let that be Jim. Let the Modern performer give his rendition but let him be the artist, the interpreter, the deliverer of the Word. I can accept the difference just as I can accept that Van Cliburn is not Shubert and Diaz is not Bach

Have I made my point? I hope so.

If you need it in precise words, I have nothing against bands that play music written by other groups or people. Remember that I founded the Organ Factory - trust me, they played, among other, Doors music with precision and diligence. The singer was a skinny, cross eyed, short haired not so good looking kid. But he had the Style, he sang the words, he made the gestures... and that was all it took.

I intensly dislike the word "tribute" as applied to bands. Lets face it - they are imitators. That, of course, is the sincerest form of flattery. But they are in it for Money. They are not paying tribute to anyone. They like that style of music, they play it, rather than write their own, and they make a business of it. And - There Is Nothing Wrong With That!!!

So - Be a performer, be not an imitator.

[windchime]

Let us listen to Mozart because he is dead. Let us listen to the Doors because they are dead.

If we can have a substitute pianist playing the Mozart concertos then I think it only fair that we can have a substitute singer - and orchestra - restore our image of teh Doors as well.

Are we OK so Far??

There is a difference that appears at this point. The pianist does not dress like or act like Mozart.

Why should the singer thry to dress like Morrison. I agree that it is essential that the orchestra should sound exactly like the original orchestration. After all, as you so aptly pointed out, that is what made them unique - that "Different Orchestration" that made the music special.

Acting like Morrison - OK the Pianist acts like Mozart as well.

There is a line between presenting the performance of Doors music in the original and presentation by a currently active group.

All the notes must be there as originally scored and all the words must be as Jim or whomever wrote them. The inflection to tonalities and other subtleties should be there as well. But the clothes, the hair the????

Can't Jow Smith be Joe Smith and provide his own interpretation of the original rather than trying to slavishly copy Morrison to the last detail?

No one will recreate Jim. He was an individual, unique. He has his style, image. Let that be Jim. Let the Modern performer give his rendition but let him be the artist, the interpreter, the deliverer of the Word. I can accept the difference just as I can accept that Van Cliburn is not Shubert and Diaz is not Bach

Have I made my point? I hope so.

If you need it in precise words, I have nothing against bands that play music written by other groups or people. Remember that I founded the Organ Factory - trust me, they played, among other, Doors music with precision and diligence. The singer was a skinny, cross eyed, short haired not so good looking kid. But he had the Style, he sang the words, he made the gestures... and that was all it took.

I intensly dislike the word "tribute" as applied to bands. Lets face it - they are imitators. That, of course, is the sincerest form of flattery. But they are in it for Money. They are not paying tribute to anyone. They like that style of music, they play it, rather than write their own, and they make a business of it. And - There Is Nothing Wrong With That!!!

So - Be a performer, be not an imitator.

May I just say AMEN!!! This is all about money and Ian IS trying to imitate Jim from the leather, the boots, the shoes, on and on. Sing the music, that is fine, but never forget you are not The Doors.

Thanks for your fine perspective and keeping it real.

[windchime]

Let us listen to Mozart because he is dead. Let us listen to the Doors because they are dead.

If we can have a substitute pianist playing the Mozart concertos then I think it only fair that we can have a substitute singer - and orchestra - restore our image of teh Doors as well.

Are we OK so Far??

There is a difference that appears at this point. The pianist does not dress like or act like Mozart.

Why should the singer thry to dress like Morrison. I agree that it is essential that the orchestra should sound exactly like the original orchestration. After all, as you so aptly pointed out, that is what made them unique - that "Different Orchestration" that made the music special.

Acting like Morrison - OK the Pianist acts like Mozart as well.

There is a line between presenting the performance of Doors music in the original and presentation by a currently active group.

All the notes must be there as originally scored and all the words must be as Jim or whomever wrote them. The inflection to tonalities and other subtleties should be there as well. But the clothes, the hair the????

Can't Jow Smith be Joe Smith and provide his own interpretation of the original rather than trying to slavishly copy Morrison to the last detail?

No one will recreate Jim. He was an individual, unique. He has his style, image. Let that be Jim. Let the Modern performer give his rendition but let him be the artist, the interpreter, the deliverer of the Word. I can accept the difference just as I can accept that Van Cliburn is not Shubert and Diaz is not Bach

Have I made my point? I hope so.

If you need it in precise words, I have nothing against bands that play music written by other groups or people. Remember that I founded the Organ Factory - trust me, they played, among other, Doors music with precision and diligence. The singer was a skinny, cross eyed, short haired not so good looking kid. But he had the Style, he sang the words, he made the gestures... and that was all it took.

I intensly dislike the word "tribute" as applied to bands. Lets face it - they are imitators. That, of course, is the sincerest form of flattery. But they are in it for Money. They are not paying tribute to anyone. They like that style of music, they play it, rather than write their own, and they make a business of it. And - There Is Nothing Wrong With That!!!

So - Be a performer, be not an imitator.

May I just say AMEN!!! This is all about money and Ian IS trying to imitate Jim from the leather, the boots, the shoes, on and on. Sing the music, that is fine, but never forget you are not The Doors.

Thanks for your fine perspective and keeping it real.

Woops, I meant from boots, to glasses (the guy is a sham) as is the group!

[nephron]

I like your honesty and opinion, Vince. Just remember that these guys, like Ian, are just tryin' to make a buck and feed their family.

Me? I'd never watch that shit. Purist is as purist does.

[windchime]

I like your honesty and opinion, Vince. Just remember that these guys, like Ian, are just tryin' to make a buck and feed their family.

Me? I'd never watch that shit. Purist is as purist does.

I have read your posts and think you are great. However these guys are not starving. The money from the royalties alone would keep them living very well for a lifetime. This is all about Ray wanting to "Fake the Myth" rather than "Make the Myth." Yes, Robby is there as well which is a disappointment as well, but they are not hurting for money. Oh, and Robby's family had a lot of money before he ever became famous, so??

Peace~

[Stuart]

Ray only pays his"Respects" to Jim when he has got something to sell.

Manzarek is a complete disgrace to JDM.

[RayMan]

Wow Vince. Great posts here. When I worked for the band in 2002, the waves of emotion and applause and approval from the audience was overwhelming. Setting up Ray's keyboard on the first gig was totally nervewracking. I knew that as I rolled out Ray's keyboard just before the show that if I looked up at the 6000 people in the crowd at Calif Speedway, instead of concentrating on my job, that I would lose complete control of my faculties. The energy was also there at the next show in Toronto, although more subdued because it wasn't the wild Calif crowds we all know. I wanted to sit out in the audience for the first time so I went to see the band again last year. Ian had changed his look with a samurai headband and was not going for the Jim look. He always sounded like Ian singing Jim to me. I agree the hair and going for the Jim look were more of something a tribute band would do.

John

[vince]

I think we all agree that Ray has gone overboard with the perpetuation of the Morrison Myth. We can pretty much agree that keeping that alive does put money - a lot of it - in Ray's pockets.


But do we all agree that the only reason he does this is for that money. After all, Ray is married, he has his own house and lives pretty well. He has his music, his fans and his memories.

Maybe, Just maybe, Peeps of this Forum, we are missing what drives Ray to be a myth-giver, a story teller, a worshiper of Morrison beyong any groupies wildest dreams.

Maybe Ray is driven by something else that we do not know of or understand.

You might not agree with his methods and manner. I can accept that and pretty much stand with you. But let's not forget that within Ray, are many of the questions we all want answered. the incidents of the Early Doors are hiding there. So is the music, the words and the performances - all in the greying head.

Disagree with him if you will, but please, they to understand him and do show some respect for what he stands for. You know, as much as you are not happy with his current obsession, without Ray, that music you and I all love so much would not exist.

Give him a bit of slack. I have great memories of those times with Ray. Let's turn off the bad and turn on the good. Let's look through the hype and myth and find reality in all that is going on. It is really more fun.

Thanks to all of you for your thoughts, your comments and questions. We are all in this together to keep fresh what we can of 6 years of astounding events the followed the formation and activities of four wonderful people who were know to us all as The Doors.

Ray is still libing in that time - or he desperately wants to. Let's help him get through it.

[mute_nostril_agony]

Hi windchime. Thanks for the link to the picture. Honestly, I think he looks like Alice Cooper! Though I must admit the hair does look a little too familiar. But as I said, he changes his hairstyle pretty often. He might have thought that might be fun for a while, but he didn't keep it. Hope you're not crucifying him for the leather coat, I think it's pretty common apparall among rock stars. Actually it looks just like my leather coat! Of the shows I've seen, I remember him coming out wearing a brown leather bomber's jacket with a big ape graphic on the back. It was off by the second or third song, and I hate to disappoint you, but he really does just perform in an old pair of jeans and a t-shirt. I'd have a real problem if he ever wore leather pants, he has not. Truth is he's a wonderfully talented singer and performer. Best part is he's got the greatest keyboard player and guitarist I've ever seen. Don't deprive yourself based on looks, go to a show and judge for yourself. You might just have fun!

[RayMan]

In thinking about watching Ray in the shows and rehearsals and hearing him talk about the shows. He loves to do this. He talked about how much fun California Speedway was going to be. Not about the money, but the fun. Seeing him play, it was clear he was enjoying himself. As you mentioned Vince, who wouldn't want to get paid for doing something they love. Ray loves to play and it's clear from watching him upclose. So it can't just be the money or the living in the past. You can't fake enjoying something and he loves playing.

John