Cow Palace Footage

We're lucky to have former Doors road manager Vince Treanor here to answer fan questions and share some of his memories. Ask Vince about anything related to the equipment The Doors used, stage set-ups, specific concerts, the band after Jim's death, and working on the Oliver Stone movie.

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jim4371
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Cow Palace Footage

Post by jim4371 »

Hello again, Vince;

Can you provide some detail about this film for us?

I think all we really know so far is that it's 16mm, black and white, and silent.

About how long is it?

Any idea which songs are on film?

Is it still in usable/transferrable condition?

Was this shot from your usual location behind Robby?

Was it shot from a tripod or did you have the camera in hand?

Have The Doors shown any interest in purchasing the film from you?


Thanks again.
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Cow Palace

Post by vince »

I shot one roll of 400' of 16mm color film.

It was silent, as I did not have a Nagra at that time. Perhps someone might sync it and find out what was being played. It was in the early part of the show.

the Doors have inquired about it - under the managements of Sugarman. It has not gone further. I still have it and own it

Likely it is still in good condition, it is original and have been looked at once in an editing machine - never projected. I believe it is ECO

There you have it. Well not really. There I have it and I have the thought that you want it. (hehehe) :D
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universalmind69
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Post by universalmind69 »

400` of 16 mm color film....would this mean that you have approximately 12 mins of 16 mm color film of this concert?
Please correct me if I`m wrong....I know little to nothing about the very subject of 16 mm film rolls etc...
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Length

Post by vince »

Yes, 400 feet of 16MM is equal to about 10 minutes of runing time at 24 Frames Per Second.

It is color.

It is silent

I think it is likely in good contition.
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hardrockcafe
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Post by hardrockcafe »

Hi Vince,

From what vantage point did you film this? i.e. stage, audience etc? are these close ups? medium shots?

You should touch base with Doors, maybe they will purchase this as they are working on documentary to be released next year. This rare footage would be a fascinating document of the band in concert post Miami.

Also, do you recall if Bill Graham taped the Cow Palace show via soundboard? Did the Doors perform Soft Parade at this show?

Was this a good show?
wha happened
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Post by wha happened »

Well given their history, I doubt they'd be interested in it. They were offered footage a few times and it was all turned down. Ray told one of them, 'we have enough footage", shame. They could hve had some awesome 16mm Village Theater 67 front row footage.
According to people that wored for BG and at the Palace, they were taping shows at that venue, so it a very good chance the Doors were recorded. Also, I read a review of this show and they mentioned some of the songs played, as I recall: Love Me Two Times, Touch me, Wild Child, Soft Parade were among the songs played.
There's footage out there labeled Seattle 69, it's a good chance that footage is actually Cow Palace.
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Post by hardrockcafe »

thanks what was the date of cow palace? June or July of 69?

if a soundboard of soft parade surfaces from Cow Palace that would be a major find, as the critique version has the intro slightly edited and the MSG 69 version is an audience source.

still no word from "wolfgang's vault" on what soundboards they may have. they say "we have doors tapes but they don't meet our release standards."
wha happened
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Post by wha happened »

July 25th. It's funny how WV says they're not good enough to release, then Jeff says they aren't allowed to release anything. This past week on Rockline Robby said they would like to get some of that stuff.
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Post by hardrockcafe »

FWIW, I posted a query to Wolfgang's Vault on their Bulletin Board and received a response.

Here is the exchange:

----------------------------------

My Query:

Hello, can you be more specific about The Doors soundboards you have and why you are sitting on them? Please don't respond with the standard "see my answer from several months ago" deal.

1. How many Doors concerts from Graham venues do you have in your archive? You stated you have already transferred and mastered them.

2. Do any of these Doors soundboards contain a rare performance of "The Soft Parade?" It is believed this was performed at The Cow Palace in 1969. Do you have this particular date?

3. When you say The Doors don't pass internal quality tests, can you please be specific as to what is holding them back from Web distribution? A lot of soundboards by other artists here are live direct to mono soundboards with sometimes awkward mixes. So how much worse are the multiple Doors soundboards you stated you have? What is wrong with them? Sound fidelity? Performance?

4. On what type of tape media were these late 60s era soundboards taped? For example, did Graham record the Doors direct to mono on a 1/4 tape machine at 7.5 ips? Direct to twin track stereo? Or did he tape them on 4 track, 8 track at 15ips etc?

Thanks!


--------------------------------------------------

Wolfgang's Vault "non response"

You clearly have a passion for The Doors. We at the Vault love The Doors too, and I think you do us a disservice by implying that we are "sitting on them," or holding back tapes in some way to the detriment of your listening pleasure.

If we had found recordings of Doors performances that met our quality levels you would be listening to them. We believe that we will find some yet. Properly archiving all of our tapes is a process that is far from over.

We have answered this question several times since Vault Radio opened, and the answer remains the same. The several Doors sound board tapes we have transferred and mastered to date have, for several reasons, not passed our internal quality tests.

We can't say it more plainly. Listen to other concerts in the Vault; these meet our minimum standards. Tapes of The Doors we have worked with to date do not.

Without minimizing the importance of performances by The Doors, we do have other priorities (and listener inquiries to respond to) at the Vault. We understand and appreciate your interest, but our top priorities are:

- to offer as high a quality listening experience as is possible;
- to make available a broad breadth of live performance music;
- to maintain the performance of our constantly expanding web site; and
- to do all this at no charge to the listener.

As always, thank you for listening.
Last edited by hardrockcafe on Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by hardrockcafe »

So having Wolfgang's feedback, what do you guys think of their response?

Here's my take. We can't be 100% sure Wolfgang's Vault has authentic unheard Graham-recorded Doors dates in their archive because they offer no solid proof. Remember, the only dates they placed on the Web in the past were circulating boots of non-Graham dates, such as the 1969 Toronto revival audience boot.

Having said that, unless the Doors expressly forbid Graham from taping their performances, there is near certainty that Graham taped them, as they were a big name. Plus Graham taped damn near everyone.

What is unclear is if these alleged Doors soundboards were kept by Graham or sold off, stolen, lost etc before the archive was acquired by this commercial entity after Graham's death.

My gut tells me that this whole "Vault Radio" exercise is just a ploy to get the public excited and motivate bands and their labels to buy some of Wolgang's Vault soundboards for inflated prices so the labels can release them to retail. That's why you don't really see more than one recording by a given artist on the Wolgang's radio page. They are holding back soundboards, just dangling sample concerts out there--this is just a publicity exercise for WV to generate awareness and drive up the value of their soundboards when negotiating with labels.

As Wolfgang's Vault doesn't own the mechanical rights, they can't sell the recordings to consumers. Wolfgang only owns the actual soundboard tape. But legally they can't release it. So Wolfgang makes the recordings available for free on the Web to drive up consumer demand hoping that the labels will eventually purchase some of these archival soundboard recordings.

I think that's the strategy.

As for Wolfgang saying they have mastered Doors soundboards but are holding them back from Web distribution "because they don't meet internal quality tests" they are full of shit because they streamed a bootleg audience recording from Toronto several months ago and then took it down when the Doors community took them to task for falsehoods. WV tried to pass of Toronto 69 as a Graham soundboard.
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Post by Crown Royal »

They had circulating Felt Forum audience recordings on their radio too.

Don't know about the vault but i'd think some soundman who worked for the venues have some gems.
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Post by hardrockcafe »

Interesting. Why would WV post Felt Forum audience recordings if they have soundboards? Graham always taped soundboards, sometimes in multitrack. There is something dishonest about WV.
wha happened
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Post by wha happened »

Maybe we should start another topic about this, so we don't clog up Vince's Q & A.

There's a little joke going around that people think this guy bought Graham's bootleg collection. There's no question BG and/or his people recorded some Doors gigs, maybe all of them. That's a fact. Clearly they recorded that Fillmore Aud. show the Doors now have. A lot of the shows were probably taken long ago by BG insiders, so they might not have too many left. Maybe all of the better quality shows are gone and the vault really only does have inferior shows left? I'd still like to hear them.

WV's generic reply is typical. You're not going to get a definitive answer, just like only certain's people questions get answered on the LL. As soon as Jeff was told about WV having Doors audio on thie site, it was taken down immediately. WV isn't going to tell you, yes we have some great audio but we're not allowed to post it. They don't want to cause a riff between the fans and the Doors. And they don't want to get hounded either. Maybe *crosses fingers* there is some serious negotiating going on behind the scenes. Jeff said straight up, they are not allowed to post any Doors audio on their site. So even if WV did tell you they have some amazing shit, they can't do anything with it.

About the Doors not allowing themselves to be taped, a lot of the shows were recorded and BG didn't even know about it. I was told that sometimes the soundmen recorded a show just for himself, so he could perfect and tweak his art. People have said, if BG would have known they taped this or that show, he would have killed them. Between the Fillmore, Seattle, Avalon, Matrix and other LA area shows, a nice chunk of the 67 tour was recorded, I just wish we could hear some of them.
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Post by Hamlet »

- what exactly is the problem with these shows?

I don´t understand.

Is it the amount of money being asked?

Why can´t we hear the New Orleans show?

Is the seller asking an exorbitant amount of money or what?

I have heard the show from Denmark, 1968 at Falkoner Teatret, and is on the hunt for that show.

If I find it, I would want the world to hear it and take the deal Jeff has proposed, i.e. a split royalty. I really think that is fair.
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Post by Chris M »

There may be a couple of exceptions but the majority of stuff played on Wofgang's Vault does not come from Graham's tapes. Basically Vault Radio is streaming a bunch of common bootlegs and even official releases. I think it's disingenuous to advertise something as coming from this huge cache of newly discovered recordings when they are not.

Some examples...the boots of the complete Hendrix Winterland sets have an audience tape spliced in where the SB cuts off. The version on Vault Radio has the exact same splice. That's pretty odd isn't it? A few months ago Vault Radio was streaming tracks from the Band of Gypsys LP and Live at Berkeley for crying out loud..

The Laura Nyro show is from an official Columbia/Legacy release. The Zep shows have the exact same edits and drop outs as the boots. The Cream, Who, Springsteen, Neil Young, CCR and Pink Floyd shows are sourced directly from bootlegs that have circulated for years. Essential Vault Radio is a crock of shit.
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Post by thedoorsbootlegs »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b13y4KT3-o

16mm Color footage

The quality is very UGLY Exist Best Quality
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The Doors Film

Post by vince »

Hi guys:

It has been a while - too long.

I believe I still have the film. It is in a vault in LA. I have not seen it for some time. It should be in good condition. I took it from out front of the groups from the floor of the Cow Palace. It is 16 mm, color, silent amd runs about 11 minutes +/-.

Still in Korea, Another cold winter, some snow and lot's of ice. Even the Han River is iced in some areas. Working on some rebuilds and major repairs. Hopw you are all well, in good spirits and prospering.

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Post by The Royal Sperm »

Glad to see you back Vince.

hope (someday soon) i can watch that footage
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Post by lizardkingteo »

Welcome back Vince, always nice to hear updates from the CP tape , have a great 2013
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Post by vince »

Thank you Sir, May we all be spared the jovial misguided and fruitless mismanagements of the pickpockets and thieves we call politicians.

Perhaps the New Year will bring better times and employ to us all and spare the idiocy we have all witnessed in these few years past.

I am glad to visit the Forum again and find it healthy and well attended.

To all and sundry, be of good cheer and may your health and welfare be much inmproved in times to come.
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Post by Buda »

Great to hear from you Vince, reading these fresh posts from you which always have some additional info to the earlier accounts of your experiences.

Nevertheless to say, you have been missed!
"Because when the crowds finally begin to accept you
you become the suspect of your artistry" Buk
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Post by MysticHeatedWine »

Ditto. Please keep contributing Vince. :)
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Post by vince »

I am wall pleased that any and all of you maintain a healthy interest in the Forum. Write and I will be happy to answer questions as best I am able.

With best wishes to the Forum and all who are true believers
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Post by vince »

PEOPLE !!!!

I am not "Back" - I never went away. I have been here for YEARS!!!. I just responded to 8 or so messages from YOU. Suddenly you all blossom again.

Guys, I am here at any time for any question, information, commentary. Just push "SUBMIT" and here I is.

Glad to hear from you all. Have a sane, sensible (I'd like to say "Clean) New Years. Let us all thank our Host for the Forum and the opportunity to meet and exchange ideas and news therein.
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Post by Roughie »

vince wrote:PEOPLE !!!!

I am not "Back" - I never went away. I have been here for YEARS!!!.
Great, now I have that LL Cool J song stuck in my head! :lol:

But of course thanks, we really appreciate you (always) being here.
Starting pre production on a sketch show. More soon.

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eva
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Re: Cow Palace Footage

Post by eva »

Hi Vince .... Do you have any plans to make Your Cow Palace 69 footages ???
.... It's a great pity if it has just lie .... comforted by many people !!!!
... Alone you know NO ONE HERE GETS OUT ALIVE !!!!!!
And TIME ... So fast running
Sorry if I have that pain
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eva
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Re: Cow Palace Footage

Post by eva »

Good day, Vince ...
I have one fundamental question ....
you can confirm that your footage from the Cow Palace 1969 is different from the footage you are playing on youtube ??????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac8w7VqF4f0
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Re: Cow Palace Footage

Post by The Freedom Man »

That’s not Vince’s footage.I believe his footage was never transferred to dvd or something like that.
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eva
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Re: Cow Palace Footage

Post by eva »

Thank you very much
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