Sense of humour

[slimedog]

Vince, first let me thank you for devoting your time to this board. I feel you and Tony, the bodyguard have given the truest insite on Morrison and the Doors. Even when I've disagreed with your opinions I've found them honest, intelligent and very well expressed. What more could we ask?

I will ask though-I've read Morrison referred to as being witty and funny by Ray and others, and I don't doubt this from a little bit of stage banter I've heard, but could you remember funny things that he said or happened within the band. I can understand everyone being interested in his death and alcoholism but there must be a light side, too. Thank you.

[vince]

Jim would say thing on the spur of the moment. These were not really memorable and tobe honest I cannot recall anything truly outstanding.

Lewt's put it this way, you and friends are talking and one of the guys makes a pun or side comment that makes everyone laugh - Yes, witty, quick sly humor.

Jim was, as most know, well read and a pretty intelligent guy - at least he appeared so. I have no doubt that it was his extensive reading that left him well ewuipped to hit on a conversation and make a little joke.

As I said - nothing noteable but when he made the joke or comment, it was funny. I think that we remember this more for the volume of interesting items, rather than the shock value of any one of them.

Jim was sort of solitary and serious but when he turned on the charm - it really came through.

You know, when speaking of this subject, I don't know why we didn't see some disaster coming. No one wanted to believe the signs of depression I suppose. Given his mental state - not the blatent statements, but the behind the scenes mental condition - that he was in when he was finishing LA Woman - I can't fugure why the guys didn't sense something amiss. He was not very funny in those days, at all.

Can I comment - I don't think there isan 'Interest" in his addiction and I am sure you did not mean exactly that. There is a sort of curiousity about what and how - and hopefull some soothing answer as to why. I think that a lot of weight has been put on this unfortunate part of Jim's life because of the result, decline is quality of his voice, music and mental state resulting in an early and needless death.

the WHY of it is what has alwasy bothered me. But then the answers lie in his background and upbringing and environment.

I hope this provides some insight though I cannot provide specifics.

[slimedog]

Thanks for the reply, Vince. For my speculation of the "why" of Morrison, it seems successful people frequently are successful because of the amount of mental energy they put toward their art or occupation. And I think because of this they have less energy to give to other facets of their life. The amount of intelligent, creative artists, musicians, writers who created great work and never had a clue on how to make themselves happy or healthy would take pages to compile.

Also, Morrison was a young man of his time. When the youth was seeing the hypocrisy of the establishment, when you see faults in many values of your parents it's easy to lump the good values such as exercise, good eating and drinking habits, healthy mental attitudes etc. by association. I had this same problem in my twenties.

One thing I do know is Morrison had a big belief in art and being an artist and his integrity in this was a great lesson to learn from him. In time he could've done some great writing/poetry. But in being a person he failed.

[vince]

How true the statement. But jim was also crying out for a Father he never had in fact, a mother who smothered him with too much care, rootless, lonely and like many kids in Military families, dominated by the need for rigid discipline, obedience to authority, All of that took a terrible toll, leaving us to wonder - What If....

Thanks for the comment.

Vince

[slimedog]

I agree that a lot of Morrison's problems stemmed from a unhappy family relationship. Whether this was caused by his parents or just he didn't adapt to them well, I don't know. I have seen in my own life people with better family situations early in life tend to have happier lives later. Even someone as intelligent and independent as Morrison is still greatly affected by his family life.

Unfortuantely, if he was a totally well adjusted young man he wouldn't have probably followed the road he did. Not to romanticize it but art comes more from pain than joy. I do feel if he had got through his 20's intact he would've matured and got himself healthy like many others have done.

[nephron]

Brilliant stuff, slimedog. Nothing to add.

[J.B.Marx]

Each person can say that he or she thinks that Morrison wasn't a great writer, for Him or Her. It's all about what you like or do not like. I don't like the writings of T.S. Eliot. But hey, that's just my opinion & I sure do know that there are a lot of people who think he was the best. It's all about feelings, what triggers you. But as I mentioned that's just my noble opinion.

Peace.

[nephron]

The psychiatric literature is replete with verbage covering "primary" alcoholics, and "secondary" acoholics. Alcoholism is not a simple issue. Very complex, au contraire.

There are a lot of folks that believe alcoholism as a disease, or primary issue manifests itself inherently, including conditions of denial. We've all heard that term. The classic primary alcoholic is not necessarily (note the term necessarily) 'possessed' by serious skill or overwhelming endeavor. They have a primary disease, like essential hypertension, diabetes, or dyslipidemia.

The secondary alcoholic uses alcohol to snuff demons/pain/fear of admonishment,...whatever.....that is a result of their own and distinct mental disease. Typically, this is bipolar disease. Schizophrenics, less so (IMO only--it's been a while since I've looked at this stuff). Another example of a secondary alcoholic is someone who has tremendous talent, but is convinced that they cannot work properly without alcohol, or any drug for that matter.

I believe Jim was a secondary alcoholic, using it initially for creativity and inspiration (with acid). Later, he was a true addict because he frankly had been using too much, for too long. He became a lush.

When sociologists talk about people like Rimbaud, Van Gogh, ...you get the point...always, and by definition of their nature, checking out early, they're talking about people like Jim. An incredibly talented guy that used alcohol to fucking tremendous excess, both for creative indulgence, but then later to suppress demons/bad thought.

They all did it. Dickens, Hemingway, ah hell. What's the point. Everyone here gets it.

Jim WAS a guy that died that young because he had to be. He said it himself. You think he wanted to die? He seemed to know early on, that it was going to be over very, very soon for him.

I now bow to any better observations Vince might have, since for God's sakes, the guy's met him and I haven't. We should all temper our observations this way.

Jack

[vince]

The assesment of Jim's drinking condition seems to me to be rather accurate. This post, written with some considered knowledge and authority, is as illuminating and interesting.

Jim did oft say that drinking made him creative. He referred to other writers and artists as being famous for drinking as they were for their output. It seems that he used this as an excuse or justification for his excess.

I agree entirely with the progressive nature of this condition. I had the opportuity to have many conversations with some people in AA as well as seeing it in people closer to home. Jim followed this description laid out here in theory and in real life.

He started when in school and it got progressively worse as he went on. The use of alcohol was a stpping stone to the eventual involvement first in Cocain and then at the last, Heroine (actually only 3 to 5 months as close as I can estimate.

His drinking in off stage times was one night drinking with friends and the result was usually total inebriation. Other times was with Pam or as a prelude to some X affair, the degree of intensity depended on the degree of time and numbers involved.

But the stage was another story. From mid to late 1967, virtually every show was preceded by intake of aclohol so a greater or lesser degree. The amount of trouble caused and the quality of the show was a lear indication of the qualtity involved. One could say that might be reversed and come out correct as well.

Thanks for your input, Nephron, I have felt that you assesments of the situation have been quite accurate when compared with his behavior and spoken reflections on what he was doing.

Many thanks, I hope I have petty much confirmed the status, though his published thoughts pretty much said the same thing.

[slimedog]

In reply to Cutis, let me clarify I think Morrison wrote some of the best rock lyrics and help create one of the best bands of all time. I think some of his poetry was good and though poetry seems to be the most subjective of the written arts I don't think he's recieved a lot of acclaim from the poems he left. You should understand that, for right or wrong, rock lyrics are minor league in literture and Morrison had ambitions for the major league-books, plays, literture. He never got the chance to compete.

And why? Because he went from being one of the most creative and successful people in America to dying at 27. He had a band that was about to give up on him, a possibility of jail and a relationship that hardly seemed ideal. He had a chance to have it all and it slipped through his hands. That's why as successful as he was musically and intellectually he failed himself. And I think it's important for young people to realize that the creativity and integrity in Jim was something to emulate but the lifestyle would be the wrong choice. And I have the feeling that if he could Jim would tell us the same.

[slimedog]

You're last post makes me sad if you feel guilt about Jim. It's understandable I just feel sorry if you or anyone else close feels guilt about this.

I don't even blame Jim, really, you can blame life and the tough road it is for everybody. Life isn't easy and for the many who get through tough times their is many who don't and it's not really their fault but just how tough life can be at times.

Ultimately, everyone is responsible for themselves and must take the blame if their is any. I'm sure more than a few people had a talk with him, also this was before they had rehab and interventions and such. It's too bad life is this way, we can only try to have compassion for people like Jim who didn't make it and learn from their mistakes.

[J.B.Marx]

And than you'll need to answer the question: did Jimbo want to be saved/protected? He can scream, sure! But would he let anyone close enough to help him w/this troubles? We'll never know.

[vince]

I don't feel guilty about what happened to Jim. I do feel that we all might have been a bit more sensitive to the pain and the resulting behavior.

Now you make an interesting statement - that we are all responsible for our actions. Is this true of people who are schizophrenic - insane? Courts find that those who are insane are NOT repoonsible for their actions.

Of course that begs the determination whether or not Jim was sane or not. This in turn bring forth "Temporary" insanity.

I agree that we do make decisions that result in the course of life. However, it is what drives the mind to make those decisions that we must question in the case of Jim and other people who have suffered the same mental anguish as he must have. The legal system has made allowances for extreme behavior under stress or influence of drugs. Jim experienced both. He siblings reacted differently to the similar environment. But we are all individuals. We will follow the strangeness of the individual mind.

[J.B.Marx]

Yes, if you put things that way. People who are "mentally" ill, need to be protected from themselves. The mind is a strange & powerful thing. & when you live in "excess", it can turn out very strange.

Peace.

[vince]

Did Jim want "Protection" - possibly another word for help.

I think so. He knew things were not going that well when he went to Paris. After wasting his time and money there he called John and mentioned a return to the fold. Surely that represent some effort to reach out and rejoin those he did work with and, quite likely, care about. After all they did represent the anchor which gave him the forum to creat music, have an interface and inter reaction with an audience - and to amnipulate them. But perhaps, after some thoughts, he did not want to manipulate any more. HE wanted to get serious and make progress rather than problems.

Naturally, I agree we will never know what the outcome might have been had he returned.

I do think that someone close to him, Frank Lisciandro or perhaps Ray, if he could stay off drugs (Soft) long enought to get serious with Jim, might have broken through. With Jim and a mood to return and change his pattern of behavior, there is a chance he might have made it through and not remain involved with drugs.

Could I have done it. No. Jim was possible a little cowed by me, I think. I didn't fall under his spell. I certainly was his intellectual match. He could not cominate or manipulate me as he did so often with others. No, I was too much like his father and that would not be a good thing at all.

Did I want to. Absolutely. But there was the employer/employee relationship to overcome and that might have been a toe stubber. Could I, had the opening been available. I think so. likely as well as anyone else who was immediately around him.

I think, in all candor, that Frank was the one who could have. He had all the assets and few of the liabilities of all those around Jim.

[slimedog]

I suppose it's hard to say but if Jim was suffering from bi-polar or some other mental impairment than I don't think he should be held responsible for his actions, but even then some people get help for their conditions and other don't, not an easy answer. But Jim seemed to quite aware of reality and his actions.

Society seems to do quite the job on those sensitive and creative. From my experience in the music business it seems to be made up on one hand of musicians who are, at least initially, idealistic, sensitive, creative types and the business people like the agents, club owners and such are more in character like pimps, gangsters, sleazy types so it's not a good mix for the musicians. Other artists like painters and writers aren't as readily exposed to this world, I think.

I believe if Morrison was born a little bit earlier or later he would've not even been inspired to be involved in music at all, would've been involved in writing or film in some aspect and might've had more peace of mind. This is all speculation, of course.

[J.B.Marx]

And the sensitive & creative ones, often find a way to deal with "society" and that is to live life to the max & use alcohol and/or drugs to try to live in "society".
I remember when I was a kid I wanted to be Jim Morrison. Good thing I heard the call when I was getting a little older.


Peace.

[nephron]

Of course that begs the determination whether or not Jim was sane or not. This in turn bring forth "Temporary" insanity.

Jim was sane, based on what I've heard you say about your interactions with him. He did seem to manipulate, and then enjoy watching people suffer for it (even if it was just to jumble up a conversation and confuse the other). Perhaps he was narcissistic (Narcissistic personality disorder)? Perhaps he was a sociopath (Antisocial Personality Disorder)? Personality disorders are pervasive and untreatable, but not considered 'diseases' or 'mental illnesses' per se. I've often wondered if he was bipolar ('Manic Depression'), but I never knew him, so I'll never know. If the latter were the case, then he'd, at least at times, certainly not be responsible for his behavior or actions. However, it seems like the majority of time he was either shy and normal, or totally fucked up. Looking into his childhood, based solely on what's been written, he was not an appealing child, and simply seemed to exhibit traits of one of the personality disorders.

IMO, and only based on reading and what's out there,...Jim didn't have a mental disease. He was just a very unique, oftentimes perverse, intelligent, oftentimes ignorant, individual that became a drunk and eventually succumbed to self destruction. This in no way takes away from the sadness of the whole ordeal, but it damned sure wasn't the responsibility of anyone else to take care of him.

[vince]

Nephron:

Once again high marks for perception. You are right as we have discussed in PM's. Possibly manic depressive... Remotely possible when I think of the mood swings between average every day and stage (sometimes recording) performances or behavior. Also when he was with friends drinking but that could just be exhibitionist tendencies under the influence of whatever.

Responsibility to take care of. That begs the question - "Am I my brothers Keeper?"

No, Not responsibility. I agree that none of the groubp was morally obliged to take care of Jim and his problems on either daily or in general
By out of compassion or even self preservation - there certainly was an incentive in that aspect of keeping him alive and fairly well and out of trouble.

The problem was that everyone knew he was in trouble with drinking. But no one really made any effort to come to grips with it and approach Jim directly. Everyone hated the bad performances that resulted, but all they did was posture and finally threaten if he did not behave. New Orleans was the capper on that one and with that he completed the album and ran away to Paris to become a famous Poet because he was a drunk and he was in Paris.

Also, as one member pointed out, this problem, though widespread, was not recognized as needing outside help and support. Sure, there was AA and all. I got involved in that in 1960 odd. Likely it would have done Jim some good but he had to volunteer to join and really accept that he did have a problem. To him, drinking was just good fun and a way to open up and smash it all..

You are right, though. But still, I feel that someone could or should have tried to do something. Instead we all watched and did nothing except complain. That onviously did not make the problem go away.

Once again, thanks for your incredibly astute observations and comments. I am sure that many here can better appreciate the causes of some of the torture we and Jim suffered in those last two years.

[Terry]

Nephron,
Spot on, I perceived Jim as you wrote it.

[Arden]

Back in the day alcoholism wasn't seen as an illness and was usually not admitted to be present in "nice" families. I have heard that Jim's mother drank quite a bit. Alcohol was pervasive in the Navy at that time and the O Club was always full.

I don't recall ever hearing about an intervention back in those days, certainly not in the Navy during the years 1972-1978. A CO of one of the ship's my husband served on was an alcoholic who even had liquor on the ship. I didn't hear about it until years later when the man died at a fairly early age.

[nephron]

Vince, did you ever meet anyone that actually ever had some kind of control over Jim?...control being mostly that their presence and 'effect' on Jim could steer him properly? Talking about all this made me wonder if, on a very simplistic level, the explanation may be as simple as that he didn't....what happens to a person that has no concept of respect in any real way? I know that Jim respected certain persons, such as McClure, possibly even yourself. But certainly even McClure couldn't control Jim, oftentimes succumbing to his uncontrollable will to enjoy.

[vince]

I think that perhaps Frank Lisciandro came as close as anyone to having some influence over Jim. Frank was very respectful of Jim and oft times spent much time with him. There are interviews or book excepts from Frank that tell the story better than I.

Jim would come under control once in a while. I know fro sure that after miami, the mere mention of Police, Arrest and Warrant, made Jim really behave himself. He could do it when he wanted to. He flaunted authority just to do or as a rebellion against all the "Authority" that he lived under during his years at home. But when that "Authoity stood, with hand raised ready to slap him flat, he did not risk the open challenge.

Interesting that when confronted with real authority who could show it's muscle as a direct threat to him, he backed down.

Common sinse or turncoat or what???? I can tell you he did no breaking through at the Ice House in Vegas. He did not dare to blink too fast.

[nephron]

That's information to me. Just the kind of stuff we come here for. If you believe what you read, Jim was even a smartass in Jail, risking life and limb, getting himself beaten for the better side of caution.

[Arden]

I think that perhaps Frank Lisciandro came as close as anyone to having some influence over Jim. Frank was very respectful of Jim and oft times spent much time with him. There are interviews or book excepts from Frank that tell the story better than I.

Jim would come under control once in a while. I know fro sure that after miami, the mere mention of Police, Arrest and Warrant, made Jim really behave himself. He could do it when he wanted to. He flaunted authority just to do or as a rebellion against all the "Authority" that he lived under during his years at home. But when that "Authoity stood, with hand raised ready to slap him flat, he did not risk the open challenge.

Interesting that when confronted with real authority who could show it's muscle as a direct threat to him, he backed down.

Common sinse or turncoat or what???? I can tell you he did no breaking through at the Ice House in Vegas. He did not dare to blink too fast.

Interesting. Sounds like Jim may have been "crazy like a fox". I see a lot of this from kids at school.

[J.B.Marx]

Yes, but when kids behave that way, they want attention. I can not believe Jimbo wanted more attention. He had enough.
Looks like Jim was sattisfied with the answer. He now know how far he needed to go to let the police get 'out of control'.

Peace.

[cutis]

Of course that begs the determination whether or not Jim was sane or not. This in turn bring forth "Temporary" insanity.

Jim was sane, based on what I've heard you say about your interactions with him. He did seem to manipulate, and then enjoy watching people suffer for it (even if it was just to jumble up a conversation and confuse the other). Perhaps he was narcissistic (Narcissistic personality disorder)? Perhaps he was a sociopath (Antisocial Personality Disorder)? Personality disorders are pervasive and untreatable, but not considered 'diseases' or 'mental illnesses' per se. I've often wondered if he was bipolar ('Manic Depression'), but I never knew him, so I'll never know. If the latter were the case, then he'd, at least at times, certainly not be responsible for his behavior or actions. However, it seems like the majority of time he was either shy and normal, or totally fucked up. Looking into his childhood, based solely on what's been written, he was not an appealing child, and simply seemed to exhibit traits of one of the personality disorders.

IMO, and only based on reading and what's out there,...Jim didn't have a mental disease. He was just a very unique, oftentimes perverse, intelligent, oftentimes ignorant, individual that became a drunk and eventually succumbed to self destruction. This in no way takes away from the sadness of the whole ordeal, but it damned sure wasn't the responsibility of anyone else to take care of him.

I agree that Jim didn't have a "mental disease." But saying Jim was otentimes "ignorant" is laughable given that every human is ignorant. Jim was aware of the damage excessive alcohol consumption was having on his own physique. He even references this in an interview he gave. Jim knew what he was doing to himself which makes him far from "ignorant." Again, (and how many times does this have to repeated?) Jim was not an apologist for his own behavior. Jim was well aware of what he was doing to himself and was willing to deal with whatever the consequences maybe of his own actions. He knowingly hurt his own band's fortunes at the time but he was also railroaded by the "powers that be" in Miami and was made a scapegoat. Jim was not a drunk 24/7! I think Vince can even attest to that! Are there not varying degrees of alcoholism?? Do all alcoholics drink 24/7?? Or are you an alcoholic because, say, three days out of 7 you like to submerge yourself in booze crazen debauchery??

Jim's voice was shit by the time LAW was recorded. And he drank throughout the LAW recording sessions. But look at the pics from Frank! You see an alert, engaged Morrison visibly eyeing his bandmates and ready to work and record. Just because you drink doesn't make you an alcoholic. It's about proportion. Jim did things "to excess." That was his philosophy. He also was able to control that "excess behavior" for a time until he ultimately did lose the battle and died. But look at the pics of Jim and Pam just a week before he died. Jim looks relatively good! Yes, pics can be deceiving but frankly, for all his drinking, Jim really does appear in relatively good health. It would have been nice if we could get Ronay to recall that day he spent with Jim and Pam at the fair outside of Paris. Everyone looks like they are in good "spirits." And Jim does not appear like some raving, drunk lunatic.

Jim was a narcissist, that I agree with. And he knew early on that his "image" would help to "sell" the Doors.

<However, it seems like the majority of time he was either shy and normal, or totally fucked up.>

I'm not sure it's as black and white as you paint. Many times, Jim drank and "not to excess." He could have a "few beers" and not be a "drunken, self-destructive lunatic." I think there were THREE Jims. The shy, quiet, but provocative and "normal" Jim, the Jim who "had a few" but still "kept things in check" and the "drunken, raging, self-destructive lunatic."

I feel this presents a more complete picture of Jim. Of course, none of us will ultimately know what was going on inside Jim's mind at any point during his life. But I don't think he ever expected anyone to "save him."
And it wasn't, as you said, "the responsibility of anyone to take care of him." It sure as hell wasn't. But then that doesn't mean Jim couldn't have received more love from his bandmates, management and even friends (those friends who weren't leechers but friends who truly cared about Jim) to help him deal with whatever was afflicting him. I just don't think he got enough love, believe it or not!