Whose the Leader of the pack?

[slimedog]

Hi Vince, I got a question concerning who was the leader of the band. I think everyone assumes it was Jim but I get the feeling Ray had more control. I know they were a democratic band but bands who say that still seem to have a leader.

Sometimes it just someone who make the set lists, organizes practices, maybe has a little more say in what songs are excepted. It sounds like Jim wouldn't want to be bothered with these mundane tasks. So was Ray, in your opinion, the leader, or was it in fact Vince?

[vince]

In reality, Robby was the business man of the group. John, being a close friend of Robby let Robby take charge of things.

Jim did not care at all about the mundane business of the group.

Ray was the arranger. He was the one who did a lot of the creativity in that area. John was between Ray and Robby, working on suggesting from both as well as himself.

Jim was somewhat independant. He would bring the lyrics and sometimes the rough tune with him and sing it for the guys in rehearsal. Then Ray would put it to keyboards and John Ray and RObby would work out the parts each would play.

Yes, It was democratic. In the musical end I would say that Ray and Robby had equal weight, In the business area, Robby wan the one who was most concerned.

[slimedog]

Thanks for the reply Vince. I guess it makes sense that Ray was the arranger, keyboard players are almost always traditionally trained in music, much more than guitarists.

The revelation for me, and I know you mentioned this in another post, is Robbie as the businessman. I, as I'm sure others, look at Ray as the business guy. And didn't Ray study economics in college? Why did Robbie do the business? I believe he came from well off parents and was this a reason?

[vince]

Slime:

(Where in hell did you every get that monika?)

Robby, as a rock 'n Roll star was a bit of a disappointment to his Parents who felt he should be a professional of some sort. This was in the family tradition and that mattered a great deal.

His family, however, was smart enough to know a headstrong boy when they had one so they agreed to let Robby make his choices. His Father, however, did so with the stipulation that they were going to go at it as a business and make money. It was not to be a game. His Father contacted all the smart people he knew and built the structure of and for the Doors. It was Robby's Father who insisted that allt he fund that the group earned by deposited with the Johnson & Harband trust funds and administered by a manager within that company. In this way, all monies would be accounted for, Bills paid, taxes and other bother taken care of and each of the four would receive a salery.

I don't know whether there was a time line for success but it proved unnecessary - Success came quickly after they were organized and performing. I believe the J & H may still be administering the Doors finances for the estate and the 3 living members.

I can't say what is going on with the present pair and what they are doing financially. In any case, that was the deal and it worked quite well.

As for the Leader musically, I think it may have been Robby as well but I know that Ray was the big push to get into the Blues genre and that resulted in the end of Other Voices.

Ray would work out the tune that Jim - or whomever - brought in, then he had Robby would work out the point and counterpoint and John would step in with the brums. It was like a triangle, each making a very important contribution to the whole.

I can remember in rehearsals that there was always a dialogue between Ray and Robby about how to put the pieces together. John was not the talktive type - he was all action and when the general plan was worked out, he just waded in to provide the rhythm and dressing. Not to say that he did not make suggestions - Robby you can try this or that or something he might suggest to Ray (Remember that John was also a pianist). It was mostly that John, being a drummer, was far more action than talk. The tracks we have today speak of his accomplishments.

I think Ray may have dominated. He was working with his buddy Jim to perfect Jim's raw melody, to make it into a polished piece of music.

Robby was, and remains, the quiet one, shy, retiring, preferring always tobe making music rather than conversation.

Jim would sit there and listen to the music develop and he would put his suggestions before them as well. He had definite ideas about what he wanted and the guys went along with that.

[sunday trucker]

Slime:

As for the Leader musically, I think it may have been Robby as well but I know that Ray was the big push to get into the Blues genre and that resulted in the end of Other Voices.

Ray would work out the tune that Jim - or whomever - brought in, then he had Robby would work out the point and counterpoint and John would step in with the brums. It was like a triangle, each making a very important contribution to the whole.

I can remember in rehearsals that there was always a dialogue between Ray and Robby about how to put the pieces together. John was not the talktive type - he was all action and when the general plan was worked out, he just waded in to provide the rhythm and dressing. Not to say that he did not make suggestions - Robby you can try this or that or something he might suggest to Ray (Remember that John was also a pianist). It was mostly that John, being a drummer, was far more action than talk. The tracks we have today speak of his accomplishments.

I think Ray may have dominated. He was working with his buddy Jim to perfect Jim's raw melody, to make it into a polished piece of music.

Robby was, and remains, the quiet one, shy, retiring, preferring always tobe making music rather than conversation.

Jim would sit there and listen to the music develop and he would put his suggestions before them as well. He had definite ideas about what he wanted and the guys went along with that.

That´s interesting, Vince.

Now do you think it was a more 'organic' hierarchy, I mean was it more fluid when they played live?
Like John said (in the PBS television interview, I guess you were there?): we a play a song and we play the structure of the song and then we get into a 'free part' and we'll improvise musically and he (Jim) will improvise lyrically that would probably just straight poetry

Also Jim said that the music was a 'hipnotic river of sound which leave me free to make up anything I get in my head at the time'.

The guys were really good at jamming and improvising live, that was what made me admire The Doors musical talents from the start.

Daniel

[slimedog]

Hi Vince, thanks for the interesting info. I guess Robby's family didn't realize he was becoming the richest one by this venture And I never knew John played piano.

As far as my moniker, a good friend popularized that word in my circle and by association with him I got called that outside our circle, also. Actually, Slimedog was used by him as another word for asshole. When someone did a mean maneuver in another car he'd go, "Look, it's a slimedog." So it's appropriate for me.

I write for a free local music magazine in Boston and I use that name in the paper and on it's messageboard. I didn't want to use my real name because sometimes I'm not complimentary If it's ok I'll print the address to the messageboard and paper if you or anyone else wants to check it out. It's celebrating it's 25th year this month!

[vince]

Thanks for the insight. Appreciate your candor.

[vince]

The points made in John's intervieware quitevalid. We know that each song they wrote was special. They always tried to make it possible for each piece tobe performes live so that people who bought the album could hear them play the same thing live.

Soft Parade, the orchestral album, made much of that music unavailable. Curtis Amy, the Sax Player,did perform on some occasions with the group and it was sensational. But it was the mid point of the songs where all hell could and sometimes did break loose. I don't think that the center piece of any song was heard the same way twice.

First, it was impossible to predict what Jim might put in there. Secong, Ray, John and Robby would each do their little bit and eachw ould have their mind on a special rendition for each performance - I did it this way last night, let'ssee how this goes...

The wonderful aprt about it was the closeness of their relation on stagewhere each would know when to go and when to stop and what to do to back up the solo player of the moment.

This different rendering of any given piece was what made setsinteresting. there was no repitition. Something was always changing,

Jim, of course, could pop off on any tangent. It was merely what happened that day, the night before or how much he had imbibed. Sometimes it was a one liner, sometimes a section of something new
Sometimes, like New Haven, a commentary on current events.Which brings me to wonder what he might say about the present state of affairs.

Refreshing, I guess you could say. Unpredictable, variants, embellishments... and so on.

It was the Doors style to be different