We're lucky to have former Doors road manager Vince Treanor here to answer fan questions and share some of his memories. Ask Vince about anything related to the equipment The Doors used, stage set-ups, specific concerts, the band after Jim's death, and working on the Oliver Stone movie.
Vince,
in December 1970, before New Orleans, the Doors played at Dallas.
It is a fascinating show for me. We have a fair audience recording and contrarily to some people I enjoy very much this show given the the unique performances of L.A. Woman, The changeling and Love her madly.
Apparently Jim performed well although the strongest feeling I got is pain and loneliness. But at the same time this gives his performance a dramatic and intense dimension.
Sure, Jim's voice was in bad condition and it was probably a good indicator of Jim's condition.
The music, I mean the instrumental part is great and it seems that these three songs were still in a evolving process. Very touching show and probably one of the recording I listen more often.
Do you have memories from this venue, from this show?
John Densmore said Riders on the storm was really well received by the audience. Did you had the same impression? Was it the same for all the new songs performed on that night?
Do you have memories from the second show? Usually the band performed longer sets in the later shows (for instance Felt Forum and Boston all shows from the same year)
Just to try to help you here is some photo composition of photos that circulate on the internet from that day
Also, to furthermore elaborate on Silver's question can you tell us Vince to what level Stephen Davis is bullshitting us in his book regarding that night?
Stephen Davis wrote:
Three days later (after Jim recited poetry on his birthday on the 8th of December in the studio), on Friday, December 11, the Doors went out for what turned out to be one last weekend of concerts. The Friday night shows were at the State Fair Music Hall in Dallas, Texas. In the first, the Doors played some of their new songs: "Love Her Madly" with no vocal, "The Changeling," "L.A. Woman." Jim seem tired, and became truculent as he swilled malt liquor from a can. Between shows, there were questions about whether Jim could (or should) go on. He looked haggard, seemed exhausted, and was unusually drunk. But Jim managed to take the stage, although he sang with his back to the audience and hung onto the microphone stand to avoid keeling over.. The band hustled the show along, barely pausing between songs. "Riders On The Storm" received its first* (and last) public performance. During the finale, "Light My Fire," Jim tried to cavort around the stage, but he collapsed into Robby and both men crashed to the floor and almost fell off the stage. There was no encore.
An excerpt taken from Stephen Davis' book on Jim Morrison p. 399
"Because when the crowds finally begin to accept you
you become the suspect of your artistry" Buk
Regards Dallas - The show was muted. There was no reason for Jim to be tired, or anything else. They has well recovered from the trip to England. He was going through the trial but had been granted a delay - after we had to cancel the Euro tour that was to follow the Isle of Wright performance.
He was told that there would be no drinking and not antics or it would, indeed, be the end of any public performance with him as lead singer. With 3 years of performances as reference I can tell you that I did not feel that Dallas was an outstanding performance. Yes, as always Ray, John and Robby performed well. Yes, there was new music which was going to be coming out on the final recording. Drinking and crashing on the floor - I remember no such thing.
I suggest, under the rules of conduct, had Jim done this were would not have gone to New Orleans.
As for swilling malt liquor - Jim did drink when on stage. But it does not mean that he was falling down drunk. In fact, the only time I ever saw him fail from drink was Amsterdam - he never went on stage, and New Orleans where he could not complete the performance.
Even in Maimi, where he was pretty drunk when he got there, and continued to drink during the performance, he was fully functional.
My reaction to the music. Well, it was the trend away from the early Doors style. Riders is interesting and does have some of the mystique of the days when.
I think we were all a bit on edge since so much was dependent on what Jim did and how he did it. Jim was as much under pressure as he was in Las Vegas - This time an edict from the group rather than the state police. Jim made a choice in Dallas and New Orleans.
If he really wanted to quit - as so many people suggest - why did he not just say to the guys - "This is the end of my career. I want to challenge Robert Frost for Poet Lauriet". that would have been neat, clean and he could have walked away with his head held high. Instead he made a complete fool of himself, left the stage in disgrace, alienated his other band members and terminated his career leaving anger and hostility behind. He went to France to be a poet - as if being in France is an automatic pass to poetic fame. All he really did was drink, get further into drugs and fritter away his already decimated finances.
Everyone is so busy rationalizing his bad behavior, blaming it on his desire to be a poet, make movies, write books or something - ride horses... Has anyone given any rational thought to what any person does when they are fed up with their job - Quit. How about - "I am tired of all of this. I can't go on. I don't want it any more. Please find a replacement for me. I will record in studio if you want but no more stage. It was great while it lasted, time for a change." Instead of that everyone cries about him, He was tired, He didn't want this or that, He wanted to write peotry. OK - So do it. Stop making a fool of yourself. No one has a gun to your head. In the end, he ran off into the sunrise. One way or another - he quit. Actually, he was dismissed but he didn't know it.
It is all history. Only we, the living, know of what happened "After". It matters not what he did and how he did it. Nothing will change those years of history. In the end we can ask questions about why, what and how but in the end, it matters not. I suggest that in this day, enjoy the music that exists, whether it be from a studio or a tape made by some anonymous person on the spur of the moment. Enjoy what is left. Regards what music is good, bad or neither - it is all to personal taste.
Here is my scale- I would rather listed to The Grand Choir Dialogue than LA Woman. I would listed to Jilian Bream playing Asturias followed by Spanish Caravan. I would listen to Crystal Ship followed by Bach's Prelude and Fugue in E. One could listen to Whisky Bar and Sinfonia in any order. I would listen to Album 1, 2, 3 before I would put a disc of LA woman in place. However, it would take some effort to push the play button.
How can I compare the Doors with some of the Great organ classics. That's easy - The Doors were classic - until the blues took over. Then they were the same as everyone else with the same affliction.
OK. Enough for now. Gosh I do get carried away sometimes.
Couldn't agree more with you, Vince. Their first three albums are the best at conveying the actual Doors "sound." It's a bit ironic that Jim loved the blues so much and yet the Doors weren't at their "best" as a blues band.
Tracks like The End, WTMO, Crystal Ship, BOT, for example, those tunes convey the Doors special sound. It was theirs. It was unique for rock music.
vince wrote:Hello Guys:
How can I compare the Doors with some of the Great organ classics. That's easy - The Doors were classic - until the blues took over. Then they were the same as everyone else with the same affliction.
I can remember the first time I heard Light My Fire on the radio. At first is was unusual noise and then something made me listed. I could hear Ray, John and Robbie each playing a line. 3 voices and the Drum to tie things together. It was classic structure. Left hand, Right hand and Pedal if one translates to organ format. They wove this incredible line and then there was Jim's voice overall. Incredible. And a lot of other people thought to as well. Then they played the B side - Crystal Ship. "Before you slip into unconciousness... You listed to that voice - so contrasted to the Light MY Fire sound. I believe now as then that it was not just the incredible difference in their sound than made them so popular, but the words. This strange imagery that Jim portraid. People in those days were very much delighted by the obscure and mystical. It was the age of the Hippie, Of Bill Graham and Fillmore West. Oh the music was good then. Listen to this crap today - drugs, violence and single lines repeated for 6 minutes until you are bored ad nausium. Music today isn't music. It is lights, dancing guys and or girls, sound so loud your ears shut down and beg for mercy and people pretending to play pre-recorded instrument. Where is the talent. Where are real musicians? Nothing wrong with a broadway show - on broadway. Concerts today are like a circus spectacle.
I guess I am too old. Yes, I concede, reluctantly, that there are some, few, good singers and performers who don't rely on all the BS to put on a good show. But where are the Turtles, Peter Paul and Mary. Where oh Where is Puff?
Here is one for you. in 1987 I went to taiwan. You know that there is a spine of mountains running north to south. As in all mountains there are streams that run outward onto the wide fertile plains not far south of Teipai. I was going South to KaoSheng and traveling with a fellow whose family were farmers tilling the soil of this plain. It was a liesurely trip and we went up into the mountains following a stream that provided water to his fathers land. He had come up as a child and he had a secret.
Most people think of dragons and creatures living in caves. In reality they live along streams. They are, in fact, considered not evil creatures as people considers them and sharks, but they bring good luck and are prtectors of the land in which they live.
There are no dragons supposedly in this world today. We know that the English and Germans killed them all. Like sharks and tigers today. But in this world of fast and inhumanity and isolation, they exist. Yes, far up in that stream there lived a dragon. Not large. This incredible young Taiwan buy had his Puff. Can you imagine such a thing. I oft wonder how big that creature would be today. He was about the size of a crocadile when I saw him. I hope no one has invaded that secret place and killed what might have been one of the last living dragons. There are others but they are not so lovely - The Komodo Dragons - a far distant relative.
When I mentioned Peter, Pual and Mary I recalled that incredible journey to the high mountain. I wonder if they wrote that song based on a similar experience. If so, somewhere there is another. If so, perhaps they, unlike this Republic, shall not perish from this earth. How tragic it would be if such a creature, like the whales and Elephants, should no longer live on earth.
vince wrote:
...
If he really wanted to quit - as so many people suggest - why did he not just say to the guys - "This is the end of my career. I want to challenge Robert Frost for Poet Lauriet". that would have been neat, clean and he could have walked away with his head held high. Instead he made a complete fool of himself, left the stage in disgrace, alienated his other band members and terminated his career leaving anger and hostility behind. He went to France to be a poet - as if being in France is an automatic pass to poetic fame. All he really did was drink, get further into drugs and fritter away his already decimated finances.
...
Vince, really appreciate all your inputs regarding these moody times but let me ask you despite all the differencies you had with Siddons, what's your take on his side concerning Jim's departure/intentions leaving the band. Here's what he has said in 1982 in the radio show "Three Hours For Magic - A Jim Morrison Special:
"I was in the meeting in which Jim announced to us that he was moving to Paris and had no intention of continuing anything or not continuing anything. It was never a question that Jim Morrison was from the day that LA Woman was finished DONE with the Doors as an obligation. He finished recording all the albums on the contract. He finished touring. There were no plans to tour. There were no anything, and in fact while Jim was in Paris, Ray Manzarek, Robby Krieger and John Densmore rehearsed with different singers to find a new singer because they knew that Jim might never come back. He never said I quit the band, it's over, forget you and it never happen again. He also never said "I will be back in three months". He just said "I don't know who I am, I dont know what I'm doing, I don't know what I wanna do. I'm gone. Don't count on me. Good bye."" Bill Siddons
"Because when the crowds finally begin to accept you
you become the suspect of your artistry" Buk
Thanks Vince for so many nice memories and thougths.
I have also to read carefully the other answers you gave in other topics.
Regarding your opinion on the studio albums, I agree on the first two albums. For me they are siamese twins. Although Strange Days benefited from technology but it is essentially the same stuff. The two albums for me represent the bright side of The Doors. Waiting for the sun is a minor note in this first frame.
Regarding L. A. Woman I think we cannot dissociate L.A. Woman from excellence. Neither from the universe it came from and described so powerfully. The city and America. Jim was a very articulate person and left us some recorded thoughts about the way he looked to the insane side of the society he was living and how he was predicting its evolution. I believe he was right in many ideas. L.A: Woman represents a dark side of The Doors. No film jokes or connections intended. I love how these guys performed so virtuosly in this album (especially Ray) given the difficulties they experienced soon before the Doors Workshop recordings. These were well described by Paul Rothchild that did not believe in the material neither in the band's ability to create good music at that time. He was wrong or at least he was partially right. He didn't found the trigger to get the guys performing good. The glimpses we had from this studio creative process are indicative that the band did create a good friendly mood. I wishe so strongly that they will release the rest of the outtakes stuff. It's a 81 track product they have on the shelves...
Still another question about this show and considering your answer
"Yes, there was new music which was going to be coming out on the final recording"
We know for sure that The Changeling, L. A. Woman and Love her madly and Riders on the storm were performed. But for instance do you remember if some other new songs from the LAW album were also performed:
Do you remember if Hyacinth House (always one of my favourite songs) was played that night?
vince wrote:I can remember the first time I heard Light My Fire on the radio. At first is was unusual noise and then something made me listed. I could hear Ray, John and Robbie each playing a line. 3 voices and the Drum to tie things together. It was classic structure. Left hand, Right hand and Pedal if one translates to organ format. They wove this incredible line and then there was Jim's voice overall. Incredible. And a lot of other people thought to as well. Then they played the B side - Crystal Ship. "Before you slip into unconciousness... You listed to that voice - so contrasted to the Light MY Fire sound. I believe now as then that it was not just the incredible difference in their sound than made them so popular, but the words. This strange imagery that Jim portraid. People in those days were very much delighted by the obscure and mystical. It was the age of the Hippie, Of Bill Graham and Fillmore West. Oh the music was good then. Listen to this crap today - drugs, violence and single lines repeated for 6 minutes until you are bored ad nausium. Music today isn't music. It is lights, dancing guys and or girls, sound so loud your ears shut down and beg for mercy and people pretending to play pre-recorded instrument. Where is the talent. Where are real musicians? Nothing wrong with a broadway show - on broadway. Concerts today are like a circus spectacle.
I guess I am too old. Yes, I concede, reluctantly, that there are some, few, good singers and performers who don't rely on all the BS to put on a good show. But where are the Turtles, Peter Paul and Mary. Where oh Where is Puff?
Here is one for you. in 1987 I went to taiwan. You know that there is a spine of mountains running north to south. As in all mountains there are streams that run outward onto the wide fertile plains not far south of Teipai. I was going South to KaoSheng and traveling with a fellow whose family were farmers tilling the soil of this plain. It was a liesurely trip and we went up into the mountains following a stream that provided water to his fathers land. He had come up as a child and he had a secret.
Most people think of dragons and creatures living in caves. In reality they live along streams. They are, in fact, considered not evil creatures as people considers them and sharks, but they bring good luck and are prtectors of the land in which they live.
There are no dragons supposedly in this world today. We know that the English and Germans killed them all. Like sharks and tigers today. But in this world of fast and inhumanity and isolation, they exist. Yes, far up in that stream there lived a dragon. Not large. This incredible young Taiwan buy had his Puff. Can you imagine such a thing. I oft wonder how big that creature would be today. He was about the size of a crocadile when I saw him. I hope no one has invaded that secret place and killed what might have been one of the last living dragons. There are others but they are not so lovely - The Komodo Dragons - a far distant relative.
When I mentioned Peter, Pual and Mary I recalled that incredible journey to the high mountain. I wonder if they wrote that song based on a similar experience. If so, somewhere there is another. If so, perhaps they, unlike this Republic, shall not perish from this earth. How tragic it would be if such a creature, like the whales and Elephants, should no longer live on earth.
For now, Folks.
...a great post, so true and beautiful vince thank u....
To tell you the truth I don't remember what was played that night. It has been 40 years and I never wrote play lists. I believe that there are lists in existance and these would be far more accurate than speculation.
the show was sort of Ho-Hum, not really exciting, adequate I think. The audience was enthusiastic about the Older material and not so with the newer. Perhaps because it was new and unfamiliar. This was one of the shows that demonstrated the trend towards the sort of blues format.
What made the difference. I think the dynamics. In the early music you note a failry wide range of pitch and dynamics. Blues, by it's very nature, is more flat, monotonous depending on telling a story rather than expressing emotions or fantasy. I can't quite express what I want to at this moment. Let's say that I cannot imagine Light My Fire being a smash hit when done in Blues format. Try Crystal ship with a 3 note pitch variation. How about The Music's Over or consider how The End would sound. The Doors would never had had a second look in the Whiskey much less a smash hit.
We must consider that music making is still a business. The groups get paid for public performances. They receive royalties for record sales. The recording, production and distribution of recordings is another industry shifting vast amounts of money from hand to hand along the line. The popularity of any group depends on the fickle public. Example, the Gangnam Style fad which has literally swept the world. The popularity also is governed by the number of people to whom the music appeals. Going bak 45 years, the music and presentation was much different that we see today. But there were major and minor groups rvrn then. All depended on the "Sound" and the lyrics. Blues was definitely a minor market and there were few groups who made it to success outside the core audience. Most of them were paired with a more popular headliner and a rush of ticket sales as a result. They also had a slow but steady sale of recording. Groups like the Doors, Who, Airplane were constant sellers and instant box office draw. One could spend a lot of time researching the reason for the winners of Gold and Platinum and the second rate groups. Was it promotion? Lyrics? A good recording producer? Appearance on stage. Instrumentation, arrangement. There were (are) so many variations in possibilities that comparisons are difficult. One thing is certain - the market today and that of yesteryear has changed owing to media access to a world wide market. Can you imagine a DVD of something like Gangnam Style being a hit in 1967? They would have locked the guy up - or relagated him to the same catagory as Tiny Tim - someone to laugh at. Think about Emerson, Lake and Palmer with their interpretations of classics. Unusual, no How about Virgil Fox with his monster touring organ playing Bach to packed houses all across the country. Imagine a nation of teens going to Classics 101 to listen to Bach played by one of the most famous and influential organs of the day. What was the similarity between Fox of the 1970 period and the Doors of the latter 1960 decade? Orchestration is the common thread. Of course we have to consider that all music follows the precepts of music established by Bach and his peers, later expanded by their successors, spreading, eventually, into what we new know as orchestral - symphonic - music. Ironically, this lead to the end of public entertainment by pipe organ recitals and was also the cause of the change in organ toanls architecture that brought forth some really bad organs. It also lead to the break-up of the most famous of organ companies - Aeolian-Skinner. Funny. Here is the radical change in a builder of the largest musical instrument compare that to the break-up and reformation of how many groups in the 1960-1970 decades. In both cases these changes results in a change of style and sound. Curioser and curioser....
Did I digress. Maybe but music and related fields is very interested and has a lot more to it than most people realize.
Hi Vince,
I have a question or two regarding the late show in Dallas. About 35 minutes of an audience recording of this show has very recently surfaced. I find it fascinating because we finally get to hear Riders On The Storm live and the previously unheard song Palace In The Canyon. Do you have any further info on Palace? Was it a contender for LA Woman? It makes me wonder if the song was perhaps recorded for the sessions. I like the track but it is very sad and seems to be a very personal statement from Jim. Thank you. -Keith
If there iss more, go ahead 