Toronto 1969 Festival

We're lucky to have former Doors road manager Vince Treanor here to answer fan questions and share some of his memories. Ask Vince about anything related to the equipment The Doors used, stage set-ups, specific concerts, the band after Jim's death, and working on the Oliver Stone movie.

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Toronto 1969 Festival

Post by Silver Forest »

Hello Vince,

following some of the questions I already made, I have some other questions, being the first one related with Jim's relationship with other musicians.

I remember reading a review from a guy that attended the Toronto 1969 Rock N' Roll Festival. In there he says that he standed near Jim for some hours, watching the performances of some other great musicians: Chuck Berry, Gene Vincent, etc. None of these artists approached and talked with Jim. Was it Jim's attitude or he was often not well considered by many of these artist? This event occurred some months after the Miami concert and perhaps this was still influentiating people's mind towards Jim and the band.

Also do you have any strong memories about this event? For some people this was a very important festival as, for instance, John Lennon was there and performed (don't know if it was the first time) with Yoko Ono previewing the Plastic Ono Band.

Finally, did you enjoyed to work on these open air rock festivals? In 1969 the Doors performed in some festivals and I suppose, all of them were outside venues: Oregon, Seattle, Toronto.

Many thanks!
:)
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Post by J.B.Marx »

Some excellent questions SF.
Do you know who wrote the review and for which mag?
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Post by Silver Forest »

Thanks J.B.

This is the link for the review (btw a very nice read):

http://members.tripod.com/rockandrollrevival/


The lucky guy that attended that festival and wrote this very complete review is Richard Maxwell. There are also some photos of the band in the backstage. The photos quality is not that good (taken by an old Kodak camera) but surely they are interesting.

:)
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Post by vince »

I wonder that some people did not want to bee seen around Jim after Miami. You are all well aware that the curiosity over the Miami show is still rampant today. The answer to the one burning question is - absolutely he did not expose himself. My statement is supported by a complete lack of photographic evidence to the contrary.

Jim, especially after Miami, was considered one of the "Bad Boys" along with the Fugs and a few others. Some other performers did not want to get too close, so to speak, especially in that post trauma period.

Consider also that sometimes Jim was aloof. At times he was genial and would converse. Other times he was pewnsive, moody and somewhat withdrawn. His personality and reaction to other was mercurial and unpredictable. When sober, he was shy, polite, curious and conversational. When drinking, he was talkative, loud, sarcastic and, on occasion - isolated. Who knows why.

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Post by Silver Forest »

Alcohoolism is a destructive, painful experience. I had experienced this in my family and so I'm familiar with this complete alteration of personality triggered by alcohol.

Jim had probably a destructive reunion of risk factors. He was a loner; he was an intelectual with a conviction of experience all possible extreme situations to get full understanding of life and human behaviour; he had money and therefore many "friends" and finnally he had most probably some genetic predisposition.

But Vince, back to Toronto Festival... Wow, it's been 3 years after my questions. In fact you probably didn't notice these since you didn't answer. Or maybe you find it not stimulating to do it, which is ok. But if you want now to do it well, I'm still curious about this event.

Also, you were there for sure. So, did you had bad feelings on this venue? The recording we have sounds nice and besides Jim's look it was musically a good show. I enjoy particularly Jim's declaring just before The End that he was honoured to be among so many "musical illustrious geniuses". Very sweet and extremely fair given some of the names from this event.

You are also in a particular good position to demystify an old rumour: this Doors show was or was not filmed? All evidence points it ou that the crew that filmed Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis and John Lennon was not authorized and therefore packed their stuff before the last show which was The Doors. Can you confirm this?

Thanks :)

ps: thanks thedoorsbootlegs for the photo. If it is from this show then it is the second one I see of Jim on stage. Very dark so another indicator that the performance was not filmed.
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Post by vince »

AS far as I can remember - it was a long time ago and we had nothing to do with the film crew except to keep them from tripping over mike and power cords - that this was not filmed. It was not eas y to get equipment into Canada. The documentation was extensive, had to be certified and there were border inspections.

It is true that film crews, with exception of news stations, were not allowed to film without permission of the group. After all, footage like that would be used for commercial purposes. Even then, people were aware of monetary compensation. In fact, you might recall that there was a major break of actors with the studio contracts - United Artists was an offshoot of this trend.

Film crews were respectful of other people. By the way, the "Darkness" of the stage was no measure of intent to film. Most of the groups required spotlichts to be in specified locations and trained on specific people. those lights would prvide enough lumens to use high speed color enegative film available in 16MM format.

Dark photos taken as stills ere usually the result of someone 50' back from the stage with a SLR camera and a flash. That was something akin to peeing in the ocean and expection a sea-level rise of 3'. I suppose another analogy would be a mosquito climbing up an elephants ass with rape in mind.

Did you read that last one? How could an elephants ass have rape in mind? It is the mosquito that is intent on rape.

Do we say what we mean? Do we mean what we say? If a person says exactly what he means does the listener interpret what is said exactly as intended? Not usually.

Oh how much fun is language

Here is one for you. Chinese is a language based on abbreviated illustrations of objects. Characters. They have no written alphabet as such though the language can be romanized using PinYin. But I digress.

Trouble is spoken as MaFan. It is written using a combination of house and fire. How interesting. I would say that if your house was on fire you would have trouble.
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Post by Silver Forest »

Vince, you do have a unique way of saying things. Life experience and personality combined. Funny analogies :)

In my perspective your post is a final word on all those rumpurs. This show was not filmed professionaly. Thanks for the infos.
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Post by wha happened »

Silver Forest wrote: In my perspective your post is a final word on all those rumpurs. This show was not filmed professionaly. Thanks for the infos.
Silver, the entire Toronto Rock N Roll Revival was filmed. No rumors. Pennebaker's Doors footage is in the hands of a well known Book publisher. Jampol can't even come to a deal with the release of the Isle Of Wight footage, so we can expect to never see Toronto or other things like Boston pro shot and the portions of Hawaii '70 that were also filmed.
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Post by vince »

If Toronto was filmed they did it would out the permission of the Doors. If there is film ,a dI do not remember such, regardless of who has it I cannot see that it can be released without the consent of the 3 guys and the Curson's. being the estate holder.

I wish I had filmed more. I had the equipment certainly. But I had another job to do and had not time to be fooling around with a camera. Besides, they guys trusted me not to take advantage.

It was the same on the Doors set. I took many photos and they remain in my personal colection I beileve I was the only person, aside fromt he official stills photographer, who was allowed to take photos.
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Post by Buda »

Greg, as far as I can recall, even though Pennebaker doesn't remember filming the Doors, he did eventually filmed them? Hope so as it is great news then.
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Post by Buda »

vince wrote: ...
I took many photos and they remain in my personal colection I beileve I was the only person, aside fromt he official stills photographer, who was allowed to take photos.
Vince, did you ever think about releasing your photographs of the Doors thru the years (1968-1971)? Opposed to a film, legally you're the copyright holder so you can do it on your own and I guess that would be a much easier job to make it done than writing a book. Plus, that could also make a great buzz/path for the book in the future.
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Post by lizardkingteo »

I second that , would love to purchase a book about your recollections and a book with your personal photos with the band , that would be a good year!

Greg , do you have any proof to support your statements? Thats great news if true.
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Post by Silver Forest »

wha happened wrote:
Silver Forest wrote: In my perspective your post is a final word on all those rumpurs. This show was not filmed professionaly. Thanks for the infos.
Silver, the entire Toronto Rock N Roll Revival was filmed. No rumors. Pennebaker's Doors footage is in the hands of a well known Book publisher. Jampol can't even come to a deal with the release of the Isle Of Wight footage, so we can expect to never see Toronto or other things like Boston pro shot and the portions of Hawaii '70 that were also filmed.
Greg, you know that I always respect you and I'm aware of all your knowledge regarding Doors footage and recordings. This is my first and very important point. If you're saying that the entire festival was filmed then I have to take that in account but allow me to find it strange that Vince doesn't remember it. I mean if they used the same crew and the same angles they did for all the footage we know then it's impossible not having notice it. Like Vince said, it's essential to have authorization from the band and Vince always said that he allowed no person to go to the stage without the proper permission.

This is a good issue to discuss since to clarify without doubts the existence of this footage is important not only for fans but also the business. I mean, I don't care a shit of Jim's "dirty bag" looks (although this is important for the management and the so called "business") since what is important for me is the music and the intrinsic value of the footage. I believe that many other fans think just like me. This show was musically very good and if it exists this would be a rare item in the scarce vault of Doors professionally filmed shows.

But in the circumstance of this footage be in the hands of someone willing to deal then you are right about the disgraceful impossibility of watching this in a near (or not so near) future. Should we blame Jim for not shaving himself before Isle of Wight and Toronto (being ironic...) or should we blame this management's recurrent attitude towards Doors legacy? Kind of a rethoric question. For some years it was kind of strange for me to see your corrosive opinions but time has instructed me that you do have reasons for that.

An interesting question: did Danny Suggerman knew about it? As far as I know Danny was the man that set up the deal with Vince for the three wonderful tapes from Seattle, Vancouver and Bakersfield. I suppose his attitude towards a Toronto footage would have been different.

Anyway returning to the discussion around the existence of this Toronto footage, you have to indulge me even if you're saying so, I find it very strange that no evidence has corroborated what you're saying. I guess after all those years D.A. Pennebaker if his team indeed filmed the Doors set, couldn't be sued for that. Am I right? It may be a naif opinion but I still believe in the powerful pressure that a circulating sample constitutes for creating conditions for a deal. The same applies to the New Orleans tape or other soundboards from shows that supposedly were much more interesting ones.

ps: Hawaii '70 :shock: Dear God, another one... Amateur footage, right?
Last edited by Silver Forest on Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Silver Forest »

Buda wrote:
vince wrote: ...
I took many photos and they remain in my personal colection I beileve I was the only person, aside fromt he official stills photographer, who was allowed to take photos.
Vince, did you ever think about releasing your photographs of the Doors thru the years (1968-1971)? Opposed to a film, legally you're the copyright holder so you can do it on your own and I guess that would be a much easier job to make it done than writing a book. Plus, that could also make a great buzz/path for the book in the future.
See Vince... (allow me for this benevolent joke) one more reason to insist in finding a good editor for your book. :wink:
I'm sure that those photos are extremely valuable and would be another distinctive element between your book and all the others around.
Robby is the only element of the band that never published his memories. I always thought he could add another dimension to what we know. I enjoyed John's book and although I never read anything from Ray I'm pretty aware of his perspectives since I listened to him many times. Now I'm aware that there is a fifht person that was on stage anf that it should be carefully read.
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Post by Roughie »

Silver, I have read Ray's book and it is a good read, not as good as john's, and as you can imagine there are times when he keeps the myths going. I think he mentions something about meeting someone on a beach. :twisted:

Vince I know it is entirely your decision as to whether you release a book or photos or both but I would just like to say that I too would love to read it and see the photos.
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Post by Silver Forest »

Roughie wrote:Silver, I have read Ray's book and it is a good read, not as good as john's, and as you can imagine there are times when he keeps the myths going. I think he mentions something about meeting someone on a beach. :twisted:

Vince I know it is entirely your decision as to whether you release a book or photos or both but I would just like to say that I too would love to read it and see the photos.

Meeting on a beach? I don't know what you're talking about.
Also, it seems from your words that Ray is obsessed...

So, 1965 on a beach? Maybe

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sorry Vince and people... Couldn't resist.
Ahhhh Roughie I always clown myself after your comments :lol:
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Post by Roughie »

I'm a bad influence. :oops:
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Post by vince »

TO EVERYONE IN GENERAL:

The "PHOTOS" spoken about are of the making of the Doors movie in 1990 by Oliver Stone. They are of the sets, occasionally when shooting more often not. They are of some people, places and things. They have never been seen by anyone but me.

Whether they will see the light of day individually or maybe be sold as a set is yet to be decided. There are 6 color slides of the guys in Haway - hotel lobby. The only photos I took of the individual Doors of stage.

Thise are the ONLY photos I have. I would not use any photos not taken by me in any book I wrote. The reasons should be obvious to all concerned.

It is likely that the volumes released by Frank Lisciandro are the most artistic and comprehensive of any collection I can think of. Frank had the "Eye" and was a careful, artist person. He made every shot count.

I have seen only one of many volumes he produced and encourage anyone interested to follow his productions.

Regards a book - We shall see. There is a lot of work to do. That book would be my retirement fund. There have been suggestions of "Electronic Publication". I have no idea what that means, entails or how to do it. Books, even in papaerback, on a shelf demonstrates interest, value and the change to pass it along to a younger generation who cannot know the wonderful experience of a live concert with the Doors and so many other groups worthy of reverence and historic scrutiny.

For the moment - there it sits.
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Post by wha happened »

Silver Forest wrote:
wha happened wrote:
Greg, you know that I always respect you and I'm aware of all your knowledge regarding Doors footage and recordings. This is my first and very important point. If you're saying that the entire festival was filmed then I have to take that in account but allow me to find it strange that Vince doesn't remember it. I mean if they used the same crew and the same angles they did for all the footage we know then it's impossible not having notice it. Like Vince said, it's essential to have authorization from the band and Vince always said that he allowed no person to go to the stage without the proper permission.

This is a good issue to discuss since to clarify without doubts the existence of this footage is important not only for fans but also the business. I mean, I don't care a shit of Jim's "dirty bag" looks (although this is important for the management and the so called "business") since what is important for me is the music and the intrinsic value of the footage. I believe that many other fans think just like me. This show was musically very good and if it exists this would be a rare item in the scarce vault of Doors professionally filmed shows.

But in the circumstance of this footage be in the hands of someone willing to deal then you are right about the disgraceful impossibility of watching this in a near (or not so near) future. Should we blame Jim for not shaving himself before Isle of Wight and Toronto (being ironic...) or should we blame this management's recurrent attitude towards Doors legacy? Kind of a rethoric question. For some years it was kind of strange for me to see your corrosive opinions but time has instructed me that you do have reasons for that.

An interesting question: did Danny Suggerman knew about it? As far as I know Danny was the man that set up the deal with Vince for the three wonderful tapes from Seattle, Vancouver and Bakersfield. I suppose his attitude towards a Toronto footage would have been different.

Anyway returning to the discussion around the existence of this Toronto footage, you have to indulge me even if you're saying so, I find it very strange that no evidence has corroborated what you're saying. I guess after all those years D.A. Pennebaker if his team indeed filmed the Doors set, couldn't be sued for that. Am I right? It may be a naif opinion but I still believe in the powerful pressure that a circulating sample constitutes for creating conditions for a deal. The same applies to the New Orleans tape or other soundboards from shows that supposedly were much more interesting ones.

ps: Hawaii '70 :shock: Dear God, another one... Amateur footage, right?
Remember that this concert took place a long time ago, so some memories may be a little foggy. There are things that I talked to Robby about that he has no memory of. On the other hand he might remember that some one stole his jacket at a particular concert. When Robby talked about the CBC television show on the Soundstage dvd, he got that performance confused with Toronto '69. Botnick insists he recorded Hawaii '69, yet we know it was 1970. I've seen Alice Cooper talk about the Toronto show and it's different than what actually happened. Vince may not remember the news film crew that filmed a portion of the Bakersfield '70 concert, yet we know that footage exists. Just because something isn't out there in the public domain doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I know some people need to see or hear things with their own eyes for them to believe it.

We can't expect all of these guys to remember every little detail. I've talked to Paul Ferrara about things he filmed and he has a hard time remembering every detail. He will tell you that our knowledge is probably better than his memory.

Who knows if Sugerman knew about it, but most of the people close to Jim didn't trust him and kept things away from Danny. He sold off a lot of things to support his own habit. I personally gave Danny leads to audio and film and he never followed up on it. As I was told, Danny was kept around as manager as long as he was because, "he knew where the bodies were buried".

You would be surprised what still exists out there in terms of audio and film. I guarantee most of the sound men that recorded the band didn't get their permission.

Hawaii '70 footage is 16mm.
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The Toronto filming

Post by vince »

Hello Folks:

If I may be allowed to make some mention of this event.

First - recorded images must have releases of they are to be used for commercial purposes. THis goes under invasion of privacy, copyright and other issues.

Second, we who were "There" had a lot on our minds aside form the events that went on outside out realm - that is, off stage. Filming could occur from any location off stage and we would not necessarily know about it. The audience is dark, the stage bright. You are thinking about the equipment, watching Jim and wondering what he is about to do - or not do. Attentive to John and the emergency of a broken drum-head. Nervous about the amps, watching the power lines, keeping an ear for anything wrong and always that worry about stage invasion. If anyone has the thought that being on stage with the boys was just for having a good time - forget it. By the time the show was over even the band boys were nervous wrecks. It was never what did happen that bothered us as much as what could happen and what can you do about it.

I apply to Bakersfield - If there is identifiable footage than someone did it. I recorded it and was as likely to have been as distracted by that as not. David Harper was with me that night. I think we had a couple of guys form the area as assistants as well. If it happened on stage, likely I can confirm or deny. If it happened from the Audience - Pot Luck. That area was just not within our field of awareness.

You have a guy like Ferrara who was roaming aroung the hall while filming. Yet I think his scope of awareness was what he could see through the viewfinder.

There is so much going on, so many things to think about plus the excitement of the show itself, that you just had not time to worry about people filming, recording or the inevitable still photos that were popping off.

Overall I wish I could be of more help int his quest for resolution. I am pretty sure that whomever filmed Toronto was not on stage. There is one exception - People working for the promotor could be behind us. Even with amateur camera and Zoom lenses, you can get a fairly decent photo from afar. Filming could be done apart from our restriction area and we would not know of it.

This brings to mind New Haven. SOmeone could have been in the tiers behind or to the side of the stage and gotten some incredible footage of the event including the cops coming up and arresting Jim. But there were only 5 eye-witnesses to the beating Jim got nehind stage.

How strange it is now, after all these years, that we should be curious. At that time, no one really paid much atention to the details that now seem so vital to they history of events.

Toronto was a pretty good show. Who knows wh. Jim was much like goldelocks. WHen he was good, he was very good. When he was bad.... likely it is better not to think about that. Fortunately for Jim and the guys, those were few, but not always far between.

Well, I regret to say that 2013 is nearly over. Yesterday it was not here. Toady, there are only 364 days left. Tomorrow, summer, Next week, Christmas and we do it all over again. To all the Fans, Pstrons and Members, I wish you a presperous, health and tranquil year to come. Make the most of it. Who knows what tomorrow brings.
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Post by Silver Forest »

Thanks for another clarification Vince. Thanks also for the wishes formulated for the new year. I wish you all the best for this year of 2013. I'm sure every regular member from this forum shares my votes.

Here in Europe the economical and social situation is pretty difficult. In particular my country is paying for several years of mistakes. It's going to be very very difficult to deal with the restrictions. We are in a process of recede our life standards to the 90s, challenging social peace. We are in some cases talking about a significant return of famine and family structure breakdown. It's an explosive situation and I fear this will not be tolerated peacefully for much long.

So, almost certainly any Toronto '69 filming was done only outside stage. This mean that the filming tht Greg talks about had to be done in a very different way comparatively to the other (filmed) shows. Could this be interesting for Pennebaker? Could this be interestingly in a business point of view? Unless it was someone else.

For those who are not familiar with some of the filmed sets from this festival there are several amazing pieces of this festival on youtube.
We can watch many excellent fiming with many close-ups taken from stage in a lot of angles. Some of the folks of the filming crew were circulating on stage. You can see also people lying down on the stage taking photos and maybe filming with what it seems little amateur cameras (on Cuck Berry's performance). It's so strange that so many people was taking photos in these sets and so little photos (two as far as I know) circulate from the Doors (in fact only Jim) on stage.

Chuck Berry (this guy was great)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w_ZQhFgtYE

Alice Cooper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDFFzZRIcQI

John Lennon - Money
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEnRVaDxQE0

Greg, your words regarding the existence of this filmed stuff were very confident. I hope you're right, either for trusting people or for having strong evidence. I can only wish that if this or other similar stuff will surface one day.
Last edited by Silver Forest on Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by vince »

Thank you one an all for best wishes. One reason for lack of photos from TOronto is likely my fault. Sorry, guys, I just did not let people on stage.

You all understand that accidents can, and once in a great while, did happen. What mgiht have happened had a camera operator moved back and tripped over power or signal cables. What happened with catching a foot on the power cables. I had one bad experience with that and took steps to prevent that happening again. What about some kid jomping up on stage and making a grab for equipment. We could not get to him because someone was filming and our guys hesitated to get in the way. My motives were always based on preventing anything from going wrong, Any situation that might disturb the goys performing. No one would deliberately do that. But, accidents do happen.

Other groups might not have cared or were willing to risk the possibilities. Perhaps there were incidents - these might not get on film or tape but might be apparent to the audience.

I suppose I was being overly cautious, but that was my job. Remember that I also had Siddons hanging over me, waiting for any opportunity to say "Goodby". He missed his first shot. two years later he took advantage of my absense to lie to the guys and have me replaced.

ANyway, we are thrashing this thing long dead. If there is footage, perhaps the holder of this material should be quietly approached to determine the truth. The only problems I see to some form of release would be the Cursons, But then, maybe they want money. I wonder they are still alive. Most adult I knew of those years are not alive today.

Take care guys.
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Post by Silver Forest »

Well, I found it weird and dangerous those guys rolling over the stage during Chuck Berry's performance. I guess I have a pale idea about the responsabilities you had as a road manager. Evens so, your restrictive criteria seem wise for me. So many cables and expensive equipment probably it was a nightmare to have those guys all over.

Colombus "Corky" Courson died in 2008. I don't know who is running now the Courson estate. As far as I know Jim's part is shared in equal parts by the Coursons and the Morrisons.
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Post by vince »

The "Estate" is Jim's part and only Jim's part which consists only of royalties from releases of songs on tapes, records, and CD's. There may also be income from any of his books that might be selling. This money goes into his estate.

He left his holdings to his "Wife", Pamela Curson. She died and her "Estate" went to her parents.

How Jim's parents might have got involved I have no idea. He did not grant them any standing in his will.

WHomever administrates the estate has a lot to say about what will happen when it affects the invome and maintenance of the estate.
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Post by TheDoorsMusic »

Vince, it's nice to see you on here posting! Happy New Year to you!

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Post by Silver Forest »

vince wrote:The "Estate" is Jim's part and only Jim's part which consists only of royalties from releases of songs on tapes, records, and CD's. There may also be income from any of his books that might be selling. This money goes into his estate.

He left his holdings to his "Wife", Pamela Curson. She died and her "Estate" went to her parents.

How Jim's parents might have got involved I have no idea. He did not grant them any standing in his will.

WHomever administrates the estate has a lot to say about what will happen when it affects the invome and maintenance of the estate.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I read some discussions here about this in this forum. Unfortunately I couldn't track it down but I retain the idea that the installed idea was that concerning Jim's part, the Coursons and the Morrisons reach an agreement some years ago to share it.
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Buda
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Post by Buda »

vince wrote:TO EVERYONE IN GENERAL:
...
Regards a book - We shall see. There is a lot of work to do. That book would be my retirement fund. There have been suggestions of "Electronic Publication". I have no idea what that means, entails or how to do it. Books, even in papaerback, on a shelf demonstrates interest, value and the change to pass it along to a younger generation who cannot know the wonderful experience of a live concert with the Doors and so many other groups worthy of reverence and historic scrutiny.

For the moment - there it sits.
Vince, Just watched this piece from last June, it shows a possible way for an e-book
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... 04287.html
"Because when the crowds finally begin to accept you
you become the suspect of your artistry" Buk
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Roughie
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Post by Roughie »

Thanks for the link Buda.
Starting pre production on a sketch show. More soon.

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