Jim before and after Miami..

[universalmind69]

Vince,
did you experience any difference in Jims behaviour after the Miami incident in 1969?
Did he show up drunk to gigs more often, did he seem to be heavily affected by this particular incident etc....?
And did the relationship between the band-members change after this concert (especially the others in relating to Jim)...did you notice anything in particular?

I can understand that these kinds of things may be dificult to remember after all of these years, but it would still be very intersting if you had any observations on this to add....

[vince]

Well, you have touched on one of the pivotal events of the group.

We must retreat to September and Europe. Specifically Amsterdam.

This event I firmly convinced is the turning point in the fortunes of the Doors as it depended on Jim. I believe you all know the story so I would like to skip that and got to the point. However, Miami is a result of that event and Jim's increasing trend to show that he was the star.

The Boys were rather upset that Jim had ruined their business career. Within 1 week of Miami all concerts were cancelled, air time stopped and recod sales fell through the floor. The boys were angry and frightened. That reaction was certainly normal and expected.

As you know things began to change, as they always do, and bit by bit the public was far more aware of the group as a result of the publicity. Demand for anything Doors encouraged radio and promotors to think about restarting the program. The obstacle was the city councils and do gooders - self appointed keeper of the public morals.

Certainly the relation between the boys and Jim were strained. However, asdie from a slightly unusual performance - what with the livestock and mass strip show, Jim himself did nothing worthy of mention much less arrest. That, people of the world, I can personally guarantee. It was the ensuing publicity that made the show somewhat of a sensation. It was, in fact, pretty droll.

Jim was a little appologetic. He was more frightened by the prospect of events to come. Particularly that "Jail" word. At the initial period, no one thought that it would ever come to trail. When the storm really broke was when the real anger surfaced. The notoriety, the loss of income - remember that recordsales and performances where how these boys made a living.

Did Jim really say much? No, Not to me at least and I did have conversations with him about it. He could not understadn why all the fuss. He also treated it as a sprt of funny thing that happened on the way to the bermuda. I am still not certain that he ever realized the full impact of the political motives that were the driving force behind the issue.

Jim did increase his drinking bouts. Of course to the lunatic fringe "Friends" he had (as long as he was paying) he was a hero and they made great sport of it. Of course, they were not going on trial. I think that helped him to push it further into the world of unreality until the date of the trail was set.

He became increasingly defiant, erratic, drunk and moved into the use of Cocain. His druggie female figure did not help matters much either.
Remember the Phoenix plane trip where he took another incident as a result of his Boisterous "Friends".

He lived in the world of unreality anyway. The cult of the Peot Morrison was on the rise giving him some inflated ideas of self importance. He was quoted as saying that all great writers (Which under incouragement from groupies and other fools he convinced himself that he was) were heavy drinker. It was just another excuse to drink beyond excess so he too would become a great writer and poet.

Toward the "End" it was difficult to get him to attend recording sessions. we do not know why the performance at Isle of Wright was so dismal but again he had been drinking. At that point, about 18 months after Miami, there was a great breach between him and the group. I think that the chasm was so wide that, even if they had tried to breach it, which no one did, it would not have been succesful.

At that point it really was not Jim Morrison and the Doors. In everyone;s mind it was The Doors and maybe Jim Morrison.

It is not widely known that the Isle of Wright was to be the last public performance of the Group. It was only after several meetings with the boys and Siddons, wherein Jim expressed "Sincere" regret for his behavior and acknowledged that he was in trouble with drinking, that they agreet to, and made arrangements for, the last two eprformances in Dallas and New Orleans.

Once again, his drinking cause trouble that absolutely ended a public career with Morrison. Plans for Other Voices were already under discussion and New Orleans sealed the contract.

After new Orleans Jim was remote and useful only for completion of LA Woman. You probably all know that Paul Rothschild considered that material so inferior that he got up and walked out of the studio. I must say that I agree with Paul without reservation.

I have rambled a bit I am afraid. There are so many facets to the effect of Amsterdam that it is hard to follow them in a quick writing. Basically the group never realized that they could well do without Jim on that fateful night in Amsterdam. As a result they tolerated his increasing attempts to prove his dominance of the group. They did not dismiss him. The did make plans to stop public appearances where he would be an embarassment.

There are other thoughts. Jim liked the good life. He liked the food, parties, travel and notoriety. that took money. Also, you all know how be became a famous, highly in demand Motion Picture Producer as a result of Highway. Without money he certainly could not produce other academy nominees. So Jim himself, had no plans to stop performing. He had no real income otherwise. His talk of "Retiring" was just that - talk, to make the guys think about what they could or would do without him. He wanted them to beg him to stay on. Little did he know that they were already thinking of a world without Jim - but not quite as literal as reality.

I hope that answers your questions. Well placed and well said. Itis not an easy topic since Jim kept a lot inside. I got snippits, as others did, in little conversations with him. But his life style, behavior all said someting words did not. The boys were much more vocal, and they didn't mind much if Jim heard.

Thanks for yur question

Vincent Treanor III

[universalmind69]

Thank you very much Vince!
Really nice and very interesting to read an unbiased recollection of the events following the Miami incident....don`t think I`ve ever heard about Jim apologizing to the others for his behaviour (and actually admitting his huge alcohol problems...) and thus making the State Fair and New Orleans shows possible..

Too bad that they had to go out like that....if only, as you said in another post, Siddons or others "in charge" could have taken action and gotten Jim help when he clearly needed it the most, we would have had another and less tragic outcome for the Doors and Jim....
It seems to me in some ways that they at first thought of Jim`s erratic behaviour and doings were "promoting" their image and the band in a good way, so they left him alone to do his thing....
But when things got way out of hand forJim with the drug and alcohol abuse, they, instead of helping him out of it, turned their backs and showed resentment and anger towards him.....and YES, I do believe they were very entitled to this many, many times....but it never seems like anyone "in charge" of the band ever tried to do anything...
A kind of hypocritical situation if you ask me...

But as we all know this is a topic which can be viewed from a multitude of angles and positions....

I guess he was, as Jim himself said, "trapped in a prison of his own device"....

[vince]

Too bad I cannot write to you guys as attachments. I could add all this to the building of the book.

Siddons was 20 yeas old when he was placed as a figurehead for the group. The group had a sad and needless separation from their original managers. They needed someone to act on their behalf - every group had a manager. Basically a glorified intermediary between the groups - seeking privacy and time for what groups have to do - and promotors and other people seeking communications. Photographers, interviews, other entertainers and, of course, personal affairs.

After their initial experience with B&D the doors wanted to control the manager, not the reverse. They chose Siddons over me for several reasons, not the least of which was his youth, knowledge of their affairs and familiarity with past promotors and related people.

Bill had proven both reliable and honest, much to his credit. He was a surfer, Immature, but had a pretty good business sense. So he was suitable.

I think they were a bit afraid of me because I was older than all of them (Not put together but almost). I was firm and, on occasion, demanding. I did lack the familiarity with the rock organizations that Bill had. That was probably the most important point in their choice. No, there was one other. I got their equipment working and kept it that way. I was the technition. Bill was the little doggie on the leash. That is not entirely fair to Bill but that is the basic concept.

BUT - They forgot that puppies grow up.

AND - they can bite. They found that out in 1972.

Bill, as a result of seeing Jim's antics early on, did not really respect him. Bill made his contempt known on more than one occasion. Had I beel Jim, Bill would have been fired before he ever became the manager. His complete lack of respect for Jim and his preoccupation with being the manager of the hottest group in the USA at age 20, prevented him from seeing even the leaves, much less the trees.

You know, I just had a though. Bill was a Surfer. He was big, that is well muscled, good physique, good looking, very easy goin gpersonality. Bill really was good with people. Jim was not. I think one of the great points of conflict with Bill and Jim was that, on his own, Bill had everything Jim wanted and never got except intellectual persuits. Bill was clever but not really smart. He also sorely lack in the social graces, respect and manners that had been instilled in Jim from an early age. Jim had his own reasons for feeling contempt for Bill. Jim was in a position ot exercise that and never did. Bill was an inferior by any standard and showed his feelings. I think that Jim behaved as he did just to irritate Bill. Just to do it never mind the consequences. Remember Jim was never strong on worring about consequences of his actions.

Remeber the last line of Romeo and Juliet? "We shall all be punished"

So Bill, in his blissful arrogance and contemptuoous attitude did nothing towrd making an issue of what was obvious to me, if no one else.

As the situation became more obvious, and with increasingly greater consequenses, the group avoided the issue as well. Ray, graciously acknowledges this in his book, and acknoqledges that they should have taken steps while there was time. Instead they looked away, hoping it would go away, knowing it would not.

I would comment on the early days. I admonish you to remember - I was not there. This is from an accumulation of information gleaned from others.

Jim's antics on stage were primarily physical. It the beginning, Jim did not drink or use grass any more than Ray - who makes no secret in his book about those activities and the fact that they made a parctice of it. It was OK to get drunk and stoned, We are off beat musicians - this is 1866 -67. Let's get it on!!!

With thatencouragement and his champion as the key arranger for the group, what would you expect would come of that situation?

But the drinking never impaired the shows initially. It was Jim's physical behavior that attracted the attention.

Fropping acid did cause a problem with the Whiskey. He faild to show and they found him cowering under a bed in the Alta Cieniga Motel. He refused to get on a plae for some unexplained reason. That caused a reputation.

The imparied drinking began AFTER Amsterdam. You know when riding a roller coaster. you climb to success and then, whoosh. Instead of this being a thrill, we could say that Round House was near the top. Frankfurt was at the top and Amsterdam was on the way down, New Orleans was the pits. End of the line. LA Woman was the derailment. In Paris, he hit the gound - literally.

I spoke to him about it. before a show one time. I said something to the effect - Jim, these people came here to see a good show. Stay sober and give them a great performance. Of course, he got drunk and it was a blah show. Afterward, with a smile on his face, he said "You made me do it, Vince". Really? I MADE him do it. What, with a gun at his head?

No, just another justification for a manifistation of his contrary personality.

I think the guys realized that Jim needed help when he got in touble in Amsterdam. Had he not made it to the hospital when he did and, being amsterdam with drug experience, the Hospital people took appropriate steps, the Doors might well have become a trio.

The funny part of it all was that Sidons, the brilliant manager o the group, hired a drinker to keep jim out of trouble. This guy was supposed to keep control of Jim and keep him sober. You can see that if there was a need for such a person, they knew there was trouble, yet the 3 shows beore England were prety good. I don't mean Filmore East, Nothing ever touched the quality of those shows. before or after. But they were good, Crowd pleasers, good performance, even a minor stage rush.

Even Singer Bowl was not a result of Jim's drnking. No there was drinking but ot was not bad until AFTER amsterdam. Then, it became really frequent and severe.

Why didn't they do something? Jim was an independant spirit. He was closer to Ray, who even today prostrated himself at the mere mention of Jim. 30 years later Ray is asking whether people think that Jim looked like Dionisus. Who cares what he looked like. In 1971 he looked like a bearded drunk with a wet fat belly and alcohol swollen face covered by pubic hair. He looked like hell and probably felt the same way.

With Ray, encouraging such behavior - what could he say. The difference between Ray and Jim was simple. Ray knew when to stop OR he controlled his involvement, preventing his crossing the threshold of addicition.

It would have been dificult, if not awkward to say, Gee, Jim, you are out of control time to quit. Not that it was not appropriat fro Ray to do this as Jim's closes friend int he Group.
If Bill spoke to Jim he would have reacted as he usually did, give Bill a look that should have kiled and walked out.

With either John or Robbie - I think Robbie might have gotten to him. John was too angry to reason with Jim. Like most drummers, John was impatient, nervous and sometimes exposed some temper. John was a caring guy, make no mistake. But it would have been a clash of personalities. No it was only Robbie that could have gotten inside of Jim's defenses and made some sense to him.

Me - I know you want to ask. For Jim I was an enigma, I was older, intellectual but an unknown. I challenged his philosophies and put him on the defensive rather than reacting as most people did - cower before Jim's superior intellect... that was a myth.
They certainly could not do it in conference - Jim would have felt like they were ganging up on him no matter how the discussion was conducted. If Siddons was even in the building, the result would have been disaster.

Listen you guys - I know what's going on. This forum is just a plot to get me to write the book right here.

I suppose I could say more but I am really tired and it is 02:00. I have an organ to build so I say Good-Night (Morning) and go to sleep.

Vince Treanor

[Mystery Train]

wow, i really love what your writting vince. it is a new perspective you have given. i never thought of amsterdam as beeing the turning-point of the jim´s drinking. and you made a great observation that shows before amsterdam were not spectacular because of the drinking, but because of the physical action. shows were not primarely infleunced by jim´s drinking until amsterdam. but from then on it seems that things changed.


by the way, why don´t you write a book vince?

[Hamlet]

You know, I just had a though. Bill was a Surfer. He was big, that is well muscled, good physique, good looking, very easy goin gpersonality. Bill really was good with people. Jim was not. I think one of the great points of conflict with Bill and Jim was that, on his own, Bill had everything Jim wanted and never got except intellectual persuits. Bill was clever but not really smart. He also sorely lack in the social graces, respect and manners that had been instilled in Jim from an early age. Jim had his own reasons for feeling contempt for Bill.
Vince Treanor

In regards to Siddons versus Morrison. I almost laugh my ass off making that connection.

I can hardly believe Morrison gave two flying fucks about Siddons!

So Siddons was cool and Morrison not? Bill had everything Jim wanted? LAUGH MY FUCKING ASS OFF.

I think you are pissed with Siddons, Vince!

[cutis]

Try not to be so rude, Hamlet. Vince is expressing himself and his thoughts and you should respect that. You might not agree with Vince's assessment but Vince comes across very genuinely and since you never knew Morrison or Bill Siddons you don't know what either thought of each other.

I can hardly believe Morrison gave two flying fucks about Siddons!

So Siddons was cool and Morrison not? Bill had everything Jim wanted? LAUGH MY FUCKING ASS OFF.

I think you are pissed with Siddons, Vince![/quote]

[Mystery Train]

Try not to be so rude, Hamlet. Vince is expressing himself and his thoughts and you should respect that. You might not agree with Vince's assessment but Vince comes across very genuinely and since you never knew Morrison or Bill Siddons you don't know what either thought of each other.

I can hardly believe Morrison gave two flying fucks about Siddons!

So Siddons was cool and Morrison not? Bill had everything Jim wanted? LAUGH MY FUCKING ASS OFF.

I think you are pissed with Siddons, Vince!

[/quote]


there´s no need to laugh your ass off, hamlet. if vince thinks it was that way than it is just fine. i mean why not? jim was no god and surely didn´t have an easy life in his young years. think about it. just because you´re a rockstar it doesn´t mean you have a fullfilling life. if jim were happy he wouldn´t have needed so many drugs...

[Hamlet]

I have always regarded Morrison as an unbalanced person.

However Vince speaks in a very direct and fortright manner on this board!- Fine with me.

But to suggest that Morrison is feeling inferior to Siddons, who is a very inept manager, is hilarious.

I mean who employs whom?

And if Morrison views Siddons as someone, who has everything that Morrison hasn´t, I am sure Siddons would have called the shots and been able to restrain Morrison.

- Please get real!

I think Siddons had everything Vince didn´t have, including the management of The Doors.

- So I would take his badmouthing with a grain of salt.

[Joriki]

Hamlet,
You're writing doesn't show much insight into either Jim Morrison or Vince Treanor. Obviously Jim used drugs and alcohol because he wanted to escape the experience of being Jim Morrison. Not Jim Morrison the Rock Star-Poet_performer, but Jim Morrison the person. that is something that hadn't changed from his childhood, no matter what the bells and whistles stardom added. As for Siddons, I've socialized with him a few times, and he is a big, good looking, charismatic guy. He has a beautiful wife and is pretty full of himself. Now, he may not be particularly insightful, or creative or much of a visionary, but he's pretty chuffed about having been one of the most successful managers in rock n roll history at a very young age. After the Doors, he managed CSNY. But I imagine Jim experiencing his own struggles with his sense of self(as many creative people do) would find a pumped up and condescending Bill Siddons pretty annoying. Cause Siddons wasn't asking any Big Questions about himself or his life, he was just grooving on the Bill Siddons experience, which superficially would've seemed pretty good. Vince has shown us how that would've annoyed Jim and also how Siddons dealt with people and he dealt with people he felt threatened by in this big Alpha male way, he put them down and devalued them. I think it's all pretty clear.

[Hamlet]

Yeah- it worked wonders in Miami!

- Good to know Siddons has a beautiful wife.

[sunday trucker]

Man! What a great topic! great question universal, thats one of the greatest questions to be done about The Doors, one that produces the most revealing answers.

Thank you once again Vince! 8)

[wha happened]

Beautiful wife? I woudn't consider Elaine Boosler beautiful. Funny, maybe, beautiful, nah.

[vince]

You know, I just had a though. Bill was a Surfer. He was big, that is well muscled, good physique, good looking, very easy goin gpersonality. Bill really was good with people. Jim was not. I think one of the great points of conflict with Bill and Jim was that, on his own, Bill had everything Jim wanted and never got except intellectual persuits. Bill was clever but not really smart. He also sorely lack in the social graces, respect and manners that had been instilled in Jim from an early age. Jim had his own reasons for feeling contempt for Bill.
Vince Treanor

In regards to Siddons versus Morrison. I almost laugh my ass off making that connection.

I can hardly believe Morrison gave two flying fucks about Siddons!

So Siddons was cool and Morrison not? Bill had everything Jim wanted? LAUGH MY FUCKING ASS OFF.

I think you are pissed with Siddons, Vince!

Hamlet - I think you missed my point. Jim had a very restrictive life until he left home for UCLA. He father , a military man, discipline and formality and allthat. Bill was a serious contrast, Freedom, youth and all. the wre like opposite sides of a coin. I don't mean that Jim was jealous of Bill. He did not really like him because Bill was, on more than one occasion, quite sarcastic in his comments and in other instances, ourright disrespectful.

Bill seemed to attract the more normal girl, Jim got the groupies. Bill's friends were more on the average, Jim's far moe extreme. Bill had definite goals Jim really didn't know what he wanted. Even when he drank a little too much, Bill didn't get out of line, Jim went berserk, often doing extensive damage. As far as I know, Bill got along as any married couple might. Jim & Pam were in almost constant turmoil, bickering and argueing about the most trivial of things.
You would be correct in assuming that Bill encied the Charisma that followed Jim. Who wouldn't. It was the insanity that went with it that made everone uncomfortable

Read what I said again. and take a couple of steps aside for the better perspective.

This was something you have to be there to understand, to see, to feel and, on several occasions, much to your surprise, to hear.

Sometimes it is hard for me to convey things like this as I intended.

OK - Appologies if i said something to offend you. I just was making a comparison, rather than connection, of the personalities, the sort of social position between the two.

Thanks for writing. I even appreciate your criticism.

[vince]

I have always regarded Morrison as an unbalanced person.

However Vince speaks in a very direct and fortright manner on this board!- Fine with me.

But to suggest that Morrison is feeling inferior to Siddons, who is a very inept manager, is hilarious.

I mean who employs whom?

And if Morrison views Siddons as someone, who has everything that Morrison hasn´t, I am sure Siddons would have called the shots and been able to restrain Morrison.

- Please get real!

I think Siddons had everything Vince didn´t have, including the management of The Doors.

- So I would take his badmouthing with a grain of salt.

Once again, Hamlet - May I remind you that I made a bid for the managements position fo the Doors about one hour before the decision was made. Neither party had time to discuss my perspective or theirs. By the time I decided to make the bid for the job, the die was cast.

I have made it clear that once that decision was made I supported Bill in every way I could. I never carried tales of his errors or misdeed to the Boys or tried to undermine him in any way.

I did exert my authority over the stage in live performances. that might of made Bill a bit upset but my job was to put that show in and make sure no thing and no one caused a problem.

Bill had a tough job. It was made more difficult because of his age and immaturity. That is one reason why he could not control Jim. That and the fact that he was so disrecpectful. The boys noticed it. So did I and others.

Jim was an individual. He was determined to drink and use drugs. Bill could not control that. Think about it. Neither could Ray, John or Robby and they had far more authority than Bill.

I look back on those days and I THINK of what I might have done differently. But that is ME, looking back on a situation that existed, day by day. Bill lived it and had to do the job in whatever way he could under the terms of his contract and the conditions that existed at that time. - Not at this time. I was in the same position at that time - not speculating what might have been based on hindsight in this time.

I did not envy Bill. I was not Jealous. I did a lot of thinking before I made my proposal and I was not at all surprised at their choice. Under the circumstances - it may have been the best one. Remember that their choice was backed by Rothschild. It was also he who made it clear that they should not let me get away as a result of my disappointment. I had no intention of quitting because Bill was chosen over me. I suppose I would not be human to say I was not disappointed. You certainly would. But spiteful, envious, angry, hateful. No - I didn't have the time. Besides, I didn't have to deal with Jim and sit all day in a hot office.

You assumption that I had any negative emotions toward Bill is unreasonable and unfounded. It was he who was afraid of me as a result of my intrusion into what he thought was a forgone conclusion. And in the end, it was and he was secure in his position.

If you have any proof positive that I ever tried to undermine his authority, caused him trouble, carried tales to the Doors - put them on this forum with your verifieble sources. We would all like to know about it. I would be the most surprised.


Now. Let's end this discussion. I have made my meaning, intentions and feelings eminently clear. There is no need for you to take this any further with supposition. Even if I was jealous of Bill, what has that to do with his relationship to, and comparison of personality with Jim.

Don't be nasty. be cool, be nice. Above all, be understanding of a situation that you had no first hand experience with or knowledge of.

Enough said