Should the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored?

[Silver Forest]

Hey Glenn is it cheaper to send the sticker to Peru or to Portugal?

Sorry F., I'm being very very rude. But you know this sticker addiction brings to surface the worst of me...

Well, truth be known, I got the DVD too. So I have 2 stickers.

you're the man glenn! thanks,


SF if you want both we can start an auction

Yeah, let's make Glenn a rich man!

[Encuentro]

Yeah...so about the HB release. Botnick said in the special features that the vocal for HILY was pieced together from various performances, a word here, a word there. This obviously isn't true. The vocal is from the studio version. Was this a mistake or deliberately misleading? It was definitely pieced together for Texas Radio.

I enjoyed the special features. It was cool to see some of the footage with the damaged and missing vocals. Apparently, some of the vocals from Texas Radio were salvaged for this release.

[hardrockcafe]

It's on HD Tracks. https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file ... 3497928361

No wonder the new mix doesn't really sound better (the tambourine on "The End" sounds brighter and is worse on the new mix). Looks like this is an ancient 16 bit digital transfer (done more than 20 years ago) that was artificially upsampled for the 2012 mix:

"Back in 1990 the Analogue 8 track at 15 ips nab masters were speed resolved and transferred from a Studer Analogue 8 track recorder with Aria Electronics to Digital on a Sony PCM-3324 Digital Multitrack recorder at 44.056 kHz/16 bit. The sampling frequency of 44.056 was the standard then for NTSC 3:2 pulldown and matched the Telecine film transfers. There were some guitar overdubs done then and small items were added that were integral to that final video project. Jump ahead to the year 2010 whereupon those transferrers from 1990 were up-sampled to ProTools at 96kHz/24bit. Those tracks and all the resulting reverbs, delays, effects, equalization and vocal imports were all done in 96kHz in ProTools and mixed on a D-Control ICON digital console. The mix is entirely in HD 96k, though a goodly amount of the information will show up as 44.056 if you do a frequency analysis. Don't be deterred as this is truly a HD 96k mix." - Bruce Botnick.

1990? Wasn't the transfer done in 1986 or 87 for the 1987 home video release? Or did he do it again in 1990?

What's the big deal if it's a HD 96k 2012 mix? So we get to hear Botnick's 2012 digital reverb overlay effects in HD -- but the native musical content is simply 44.056kHz artificially upsampled?

Too bad they didn't use modern A/D converters and do a new transfer from the analog 8 tracks for this release. Shame to use 22-25 year old digital tapes. A/D converters have come a long way since the Reagan administration.

[midnightx]

It's so incredibly misleading to have HILY listed as a "lost track" when Jim's vocals are from the album version.

And it is quite possible that the vocals from Texas Radio are from a studio outtake, and the guitar intro for Spanish Caravan is from a new studio overdub. They certainly are not "lost live tracks." All three songs are mentioned on the sticker - kind of ironic.

[lovemygirl]

It's on HD Tracks. https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?file ... 3497928361

No wonder the new mix doesn't really sound better (the tambourine on "The End" sounds brighter and is worse on the new mix). Looks like this is an ancient 16 bit digital transfer (done more than 20 years ago) that was artificially upsampled for the 2012 mix:

"Back in 1990 the Analogue 8 track at 15 ips nab masters were speed resolved and transferred from a Studer Analogue 8 track recorder with Aria Electronics to Digital on a Sony PCM-3324 Digital Multitrack recorder at 44.056 kHz/16 bit. The sampling frequency of 44.056 was the standard then for NTSC 3:2 pulldown and matched the Telecine film transfers. There were some guitar overdubs done then and small items were added that were integral to that final video project. Jump ahead to the year 2010 whereupon those transferrers from 1990 were up-sampled to ProTools at 96kHz/24bit. Those tracks and all the resulting reverbs, delays, effects, equalization and vocal imports were all done in 96kHz in ProTools and mixed on a D-Control ICON digital console. The mix is entirely in HD 96k, though a goodly amount of the information will show up as 44.056 if you do a frequency analysis. Don't be deterred as this is truly a HD 96k mix." - Bruce Botnick.

1990? Wasn't the transfer done in 1986 or 87 for the 1987 home video release? Or did he do it again in 1990?

What's the big deal if it's a HD 96k 2012 mix? So we get to hear Botnick's 2012 digital reverb overlay effects in HD -- but the native musical content is simply 44.056kHz artificially upsampled?

Too bad they didn't use modern A/D converters and do a new transfer from the analog 8 tracks for this release. Shame to use 22-25 year old digital tapes. A/D converters have come a long way since the Reagan administration.

...well there it is, robby dub'd some guitar parts and so forth...still i find this a worthy release...its a 1968 show with a pretty good setlist and sound for my ears....

... i think the hollywood bowl 'unknown soldier' is better than the danish tv special version...i don't know how much of the performance is original but i think its a very strong performance...

[hardrockcafe]

Riddle me this, if Botnick is saying they used a 25 year old digital transfer, did they also use the 1987 Sonic Solutions de-clicked vocal track?

If so, I wonder if that was a mistake. If they had instead done a new 2012 transfer at a much higher sampling rate, the more samples taken per second would allow them to more easily remove sonic anomalies and clicks from the waveform. And declicking technology has come a long way since 1987.

So in summation, they rescanned the negatives in high resolution, but it appears they didn't resample the audio in high resolution. If they had done so, could they have saved more the original native vocals?

[wha happened]

And it is quite possible that the vocals from Texas Radio are from a studio outtake, and the guitar intro for Spanish Caravan is from a new studio overdub. They certainly are not "lost live tracks." All three songs are mentioned on the sticker - kind of ironic.

No, portions of Texas Radio are certainly from the original HB vocal track.

As for Unknown Soldier being better than the Danish tv performance, I have to disagree. The Danish tv show is flawless. Some of those versions of songs rival the album versions.

[Frequincy]

Riddle me this, if Botnick is saying they used a 25 year old digital transfer, did they also use the 1987 Sonic Solutions de-clicked vocal track?

If so, I wonder if that was a mistake. If they had instead done a new 2012 transfer at a much higher sampling rate, the more samples taken per second would allow them to more easily remove sonic anomalies and clicks from the waveform. And declicking technology has come a long way since 1987.

So in summation, they rescanned the negatives in high resolution, but it appears they didn't resample the audio in high resolution. If they had done so, could they have saved more the original native vocals?

I imagine it was done this way to save money on a new transfer and restoration. No declicking sofware can reproduce drop outs if thats the issue with HILY and others. I agree the digital tools we have today surpass even what was available 10 years ago, let alone 25+. I definitely think this was a cost cutting trick.

[Encuentro]

And it is quite possible that the vocals from Texas Radio are from a studio outtake, and the guitar intro for Spanish Caravan is from a new studio overdub. They certainly are not "lost live tracks." All three songs are mentioned on the sticker - kind of ironic.

No, portions of Texas Radio are certainly from the original HB vocal track.

As for Unknown Soldier being better than the Danish tv performance, I have to disagree. The Danish tv show is flawless. Some of those versions of songs rival the album versions.

Agreed. That version of Love Me Two Times is the best I've ever heard including the studio version. The Unknown Soldier and WTMO are at least as good as the studio versions.

[Roughie]

Encuentro and Wha Happened... couldn't agree with your last posts more. Danish TV is cracking!

[midnightx]

I also agree about the Danish TV Special. Love Me Two Times was never better as far as I am concerned.

[Buda]

What about the other songs? Anyone is familiar which songs got dubbed with parts of other recording? It has been already pointed out that the scream of WTMO is lifted from Boston '70 (tho there were no dropouts on the orig. if I'm right). Is The End intact?

[Silver Forest]

And it is quite possible that the vocals from Texas Radio are from a studio outtake, and the guitar intro for Spanish Caravan is from a new studio overdub. They certainly are not "lost live tracks." All three songs are mentioned on the sticker - kind of ironic.

No, portions of Texas Radio are certainly from the original HB vocal track.

As for Unknown Soldier being better than the Danish tv performance, I have to disagree. The Danish tv show is flawless. Some of those versions of songs rival the album versions.

Agreed. That version of Love Me Two Times is the best I've ever heard including the studio version. The Unknown Soldier and WTMO are at least as good as the studio versions.

+1. Great one.

[desertlizard]

it is ridiculous that many of the songs are butchered... indeed an absolutely live part 2 should be called, yeah Jeff, Doors, why dont you give us a remix like riders... but instead please featuring 2pac hologram remixing WTMO

[miltonjumbee]

I don't know for you but for me the bonus is a bit disappointing.

Logan said "Richie Havens was present backstage with a private 8mm camera, footage is lost."

The description is "Jim Morrison and Mick Jagger are filmed at the Hollywood Bowl. Paul Ferrara has confirmed that Richie Havens was filming Jim and Mick as they sat together backstage. Richie has been unable to find the footage. The only known photos from the event are of Mick Jagger and Don Steele, and do not feature Jim."
It's a pity ! This bonus would have been interesting ...

[miltonjumbee]

John Densmore was interviewed about "Live At The Bowl '68":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-rago ... 07640.html

[lizardkingteo]

I don't know for you but for me the bonus is a bit disappointing.

Logan said "Richie Havens was present backstage with a private 8mm camera, footage is lost."

The description is "Jim Morrison and Mick Jagger are filmed at the Hollywood Bowl. Paul Ferrara has confirmed that Richie Havens was filming Jim and Mick as they sat together backstage. Richie has been unable to find the footage. The only known photos from the event are of Mick Jagger and Don Steele, and do not feature Jim."
It's a pity ! This bonus would have been interesting ...

there is a photo of Don Steele with Jim too backstage

[miltonjumbee]

I know ,but we don't see the two together !

[Roughie]

hmmm wonder how long he spent backstage?

[Encuentro]

I was hoping against hope to catch a glimpse of Mick with Pam on his lap when the cameras were scanning the audience. I wonder if Jim was looking at Pam and Mick during Alabama Song. At about 54 seconds, Jim looks at the audience to his left and smiles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY1ZwubOOm0

[Porsche]

Regarding "Texas Radio" - There are 8 takes of "The WASP" that would have been included in the 3CD LAW set that was never released. It's likely whatever snippets were used in the Hollywood Bowl came from those takes.

Anyone catch the audience members requesting "The Soft Parade" after WTMO? Odd, for a show that happened a year before the album was released. Another hidden AL overdub! Hehe.

Regarding the reverb - Most of it is isolated in two separate channels in the 5.1 mix on the DVD. For any audio hobbyists, if you extract them and remix, you can get a relatively dry sound by excluding those two "atmosphere" channels.

[miltonjumbee]

The "the" (coca cola's style) of the poster is often represented like this.It found it several posters.
Is this the same artist who drew?

[Buda]

...
Anyone catch the audience members requesting "The Soft Parade" after WTMO? Odd, for a show that happened a year before the album was released. Another hidden AL overdub! Hehe. ...

Holy shit, that's some major fuck-up have to say. I can't believe there was such a scarce material to work with not to insert another crowd noise, just paying a little bit more attention (who would have recognised a certain crowd noise to be from '70?!). I don't want to involve age for explanation but seems Botnick is doing his work with less enthusiasm.

[lovemygirl]

And it is quite possible that the vocals from Texas Radio are from a studio outtake, and the guitar intro for Spanish Caravan is from a new studio overdub. They certainly are not "lost live tracks." All three songs are mentioned on the sticker - kind of ironic.

No, portions of Texas Radio are certainly from the original HB vocal track.

As for Unknown Soldier being better than the Danish tv performance, I have to disagree. The Danish tv show is flawless. Some of those versions of songs rival the album versions.

...dont get me wrong, the danish tv performance is primo, it should be released in some kind of project/package other than the old dvd release, but for me the 'unknown soldier' performance at the hollywood bowl is great...the band and jim seem to give a stella performance of the song...

[jamestkirk]

A review pros & cons from blue-ray.com






How do you feel about DNR? That is probably going to color (at least partially) how you view this new restored version of the concert culled from the original negative. Eagle Rock delivers the concert via an AVC encoded 1080p transfer in 1.78:1. This new cut has footage we've never seen before, and there are issues with camera placement, focus and various people (audience and band) blocking shots at times. But compared to previous home video releases, this is a quantum leap forward in terms of color, black levels and general clarity. The presentation still shows signs of softness in the wide shots especially, where the band is little more than colorful blobs on the stage. There does appear to have been some digital scrubbing applied to this release though, and those who don't like DNR are no doubt going to obsess about that element. However, despite the scrubbed appearance, it must be noted that there is still fine object detail firmly on display, especially in the many close-ups, where everything from Morrison's bruised fingernail to sweat pouring off of Robby Krieger's face are clearly apparent.


In an analog to the question starting off the assessment of the video quality of this release, how do you feel about ProTools? Bruce Botnick, who recorded this concert the night of the performance, has digitally inserted snippets from other concerts in order to recreate several moments that had previously been lost to microphone issues. If you're not overly bothered by that gambit, both lossless audio options on this release, a DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 surround mix and an LPCM 2.0 stereo fold down, offer sterling fidelity and brilliant clarity, at least for the most part. Morrison's sudden shouting and weird volume changes mean there is some occasional, albeit fairly minor, distortion that no amount of digital tweaking could overcome. The surround mix also makes the audience's lighting of fireworks during "Light My Fire" a bit problematical as well, with several loud pops interrupting the flow of the music...

[The Royal Sperm]

Anyone catch the audience members requesting "The Soft Parade" after WTMO? Odd, for a show that happened a year before the album was released. Another hidden AL overdub! Hehe.

really Len? that is unbelievable

[Silver Forest]

Anyone catch the audience members requesting "The Soft Parade" after WTMO? Odd, for a show that happened a year before the album was released. Another hidden AL overdub! Hehe.

really Len? that is unbelievable

There's another word: ridiculous.

[universalmind69]

Anyone catch the audience members requesting "The Soft Parade" after WTMO? Odd, for a show that happened a year before the album was released. Another hidden AL overdub! Hehe.

really Len? that is unbelievable

hmmmm... I thought he was yelling for Tightrope Ride

[midnightx]

Anyone catch the audience members requesting "The Soft Parade" after WTMO? Odd, for a show that happened a year before the album was released. Another hidden AL overdub! Hehe.

really Len? that is unbelievable

hmmmm... I thought he was yelling for Tightrope Ride

Did they play Tightrope Ride in '72 at the Bowl? Perhaps they have a multitrack!

[Beauvoir]

Botnick said in the special features that the vocal for HILY was pieced together from various performances, a word here, a word there. This obviously isn't true. The vocal is from the studio version. Was this a mistake or deliberately misleading?

IMO he's lying.