verboten

We're lucky to have former Doors road manager Vince Treanor here to answer fan questions and share some of his memories. Ask Vince about anything related to the equipment The Doors used, stage set-ups, specific concerts, the band after Jim's death, and working on the Oliver Stone movie.

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nephron
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Post by nephron »

Yes, I know this topic is almost banned. But hey, if anyone has any medical questions relating to the various stories of Morrison's demise, I'd be willing to answer them. Sure, there's no way anyone will ever know. But I can surely extinguish the various impossibilities.
"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."--Einstein on the death of a friend.
cutis
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Post by cutis »

What makes you any more qualified to answer questions pertaining to Jim's death than any one else?
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Post by nephron »

Just the medical aspect. Certainly nothing else. I'm a doc, and sometimes the 'potential' explanations are impossible.
"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."--Einstein on the death of a friend.
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Post by cutis »

Heroine killed Jim. Alcohol was ancillary. I hold Pam ultimately responsible for providing the heroine that killed Jim.
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Post by The Freedom Man »

But what about the club were they announced Jim's death at 05:00 AM in the morning.I mean two guys came back to the club, knowing Jim had died and got the mesage out to the DJ that evening.So he must have died, perhaps in the bathtub.The guys then got their asses out of the house and went back to the club.All this while Pam was asleep.
It could be that Jim was at the R 'n R Circus (the club) and somebody gave him the heroin and overdosed there.That would leave Pam out.I'm not saying she didn't have a big part in providing the stuff, it's just a theory...

From the death rapport that Pam told the police it didn't go like that, but it is plausible.
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nephron
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Post by nephron »

Yeah. All that's plausible. The so-called 'reddish' spots on Jim's chest could have been from chest compressions. The very little amount of blood noted trickling from his nose could have been venous hypertension caused by the compressions. Very many other possibilities exist.

Heroin causes death simply by its effect as an opiate--respiratory suppression. It literally tells your brainstem...'Hey. You don't need to breath. Just stop it." It basically removes the hypoxic (low oxygen) drive to respire, resulting in CO2 accumulation and asphyxiation. It certainly plausible that Jim OD'd at the club, they tried to do chest compressions and failed because they didn't understand the need for mouth-mouth as well, and he died. Medically speaking, all you need to do to reverse an 'on the spot' OD is intubate and ventilate them. There's no specific toxicity, it just shuts your will to breathe off.

One thing that's laughable is the 'smile' on his face at the time of death. lol! Last time I checked, it took muscle contraction and active neural imput to form a facial expression! I've seen a ton of people die, unfortunately, and nary a one had a smile on their face. What a load of complete bullshit. Unreal. And very sad and disgusting that someone would make that kind of shit up.
"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."--Einstein on the death of a friend.
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Post by jim4371 »

Maybe an effect of rigor mortis?
According to the official version, Pam didn't find him for some time, I don't know how long it would take to set in in facial muscles.
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Post by cutis »

OK, forgive me for coming to this a little "late" but how exactly did Jim end up in the bath tub? And how was it confirmed that Jim was indeed at a night club the night before he died??? Who confirmed this??

So, according to this theory, Jim OD'd at the Cirque, some fellas brought him to the apartment where he lived with Pam (how did they know the address of the apartment???) and they put him in the bathtub while Pam was asleep and then Pam woke up that morning looking for Jim, found him in the tub and called Agnes, the Count, and Ronay and whomever else and that's the end of the story???

I need further clarification on where you got confirmation that Jim OD'd at the Cirque and some people brought him over to his apartment. I read about the THEORY that Jim was at a nightclub the night he died and that's mentioned in NOHGOA by Danny but it was only a theory. When was this theory confirmed? And by whom?

thefreed wrote:But what about the club were they announced Jim's death at 05:00 AM in the morning.I mean two guys came back to the club, knowing Jim had died and got the mesage out to the DJ that evening.So he must have died, perhaps in the bathtub.The guys then got their asses out of the house and went back to the club.All this while Pam was asleep.
It could be that Jim was at the R 'n R Circus (the club) and somebody gave him the heroin and overdosed there.That would leave Pam out.I'm not saying she didn't have a big part in providing the stuff, it's just a theory...

From the death rapport that Pam told the police it didn't go like that, but it is plausible.
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Post by nephron »

Rigor mortis is an overrated legend. Sure, it happens. Down the road. And doesn't result in any 'change' in the muscle's certain position. Creating a smile after death is the same thing as saying a corpse can close its open eyelids.
"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."--Einstein on the death of a friend.
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Post by The Freedom Man »

The Dj playing that night was interviewed somewhere in the 90's.And he told about people telling him that Jim had died.
I think what really happend wil always stay a mystery.Fact is, Jim is dead.
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Post by cutis »

Thanks for explaining how ones dies from a heroine overdose, Nephron. I actually never understood what happened to the body when you OD on smack. I thought the smack itself just triggered somekind of heart attack. But your explanation of respiratory suppression makes complete sense! It's like, you are SO HIGH, YOU FORGET TO BREATHE! And of course, the smack suppresses your body's ability to respire and you suffocate yourself to death.

Poor Jimbo!!!!
nephron wrote:Yeah. All that's plausible. The so-called 'reddish' spots on Jim's chest could have been from chest compressions. The very little amount of blood noted trickling from his nose could have been venous hypertension caused by the compressions. Very many other possibilities exist.

Heroin causes death simply by its effect as an opiate--respiratory suppression. It literally tells your brainstem...'Hey. You don't need to breath. Just stop it." It basically removes the hypoxic (low oxygen) drive to respire, resulting in CO2 accumulation and asphyxiation. It certainly plausible that Jim OD'd at the club, they tried to do chest compressions and failed because they didn't understand the need for mouth-mouth as well, and he died. Medically speaking, all you need to do to reverse an 'on the spot' OD is intubate and ventilate them. There's no specific toxicity, it just shuts your will to breathe off.

One thing that's laughable is the 'smile' on his face at the time of death. lol! Last time I checked, it took muscle contraction and active neural imput to form a facial expression! I've seen a ton of people die, unfortunately, and nary a one had a smile on their face. What a load of complete bullshit. Unreal. And very sad and disgusting that someone would make that kind of shit up.
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Post by cutis »

thefreed wrote:The Dj playing that night was interviewed somewhere in the 90's.And he told about people telling him that Jim had died.
I think what really happend wil always stay a mystery.Fact is, Jim is dead.
That, indeed, is obvious. But I think the answer or as close to the answer as we would ever get to how Jim died definitely went down into the grave with Pam......
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Post by Hamlet »

I have never actually believed the drug related death.

I really think it stinks!

The fact that Morrison´s body is supposedly ordered to remain in the flat, packed in ice during the week-end, sounds untrue to me.

And an icepacker arrives a couple of time to deliver the ice!

A police inspector states that the body must remain in the flat "until further instruction", rather than having it checked at a postmortem.
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Post by nephron »

Yeah. That doesn't make any procedural sense. The story's got so many gaping holes, it's unreal. How many doctors does it take to pronounce someone? 2 in this case. Why?

Are we really to believe that any reasonable doc would bend over the corpse for a few seconds, and say he died of an MI/heart failure? lol! When they were making this shit up and paying people off, they sure didn't do a good job covering it up.

Not that the true story is necessary. I don't need to know why Jim died. But the story is so ridiculous, it's unreal.
"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."--Einstein on the death of a friend.
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Post by Hamlet »

In my opinion, Morrison could have mouthed off to the wrong people or indeed something went wrong during a drug-deal.
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Hey wait a minute

Post by JLizard »

Can we focus a little more on some of the more positive aspects of drugs already?
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Re: Hey wait a minute

Post by cutis »

JLizard wrote:Can we focus a little more on some of the more positive aspects of drugs already?
stick with ganga and psychedelics!!! :wink:
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COD

Post by vince »

WE know for certain that Jim dies of.... Of what? There was no autopsy.

We know that he died at the... We know not where he died, Pam was supposedly asleep and "Found" Jim dead in the tub. That does NOT mean he died there.

Jim died at approximately....

We have no information when he died. No autopsy, no medical information, no forensics report or investigation.

So what do we know?

Jim is dead and that is the only fact that can be confirmed in the wild tale of lies and cover-up

Fantasy - Jim dies in a tub
Jim is kept in a hot room packed in ice for two or more days.
That everyone except no one was barred from the unlocked room during the "Investigation"
The Jim died of any chemical

Now, we have a new point of view about the manner of death under the influence of Heroine AND the cause of red marks noted on the body

These would indicate that someone was doing something prior to his heart stopping, otherwise no blood flow to the Bruised area.

Rigor Mortis has a specific time frame from onset to terminus. It is dependant on ambient temperature, as well as time. Or Medical expert can more intelligently elaborate on that.

You know - though we here all understand the we can never get the absolute truth, I think more "Facts" have been revealed on this Forum than are contained in the Police report.

One thing I have held dear - someone paid someone else off to completely confuse the issue and hide the real story. Red Herrings are great at that sort of think. Either Alan is not telling all he knows or he is pretending to know more than he is saying. That makes him sought after.... and famous. That is a motive.
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Post by The Freedom Man »

The Doors performed for the last time in public at the Isle of Wight open-air rock concert in Britain in August 1970. Before his passport could be confiscated, Morrison fled to Paris , where Pamela had already departed with her drug dealer boyfriend. Jean de Breteuil revealed that he had sold singer Janis Joplin the drug dose that killed her in October 1970. As an illegal alien in America , the count faced a long jail term if the FBI linked him to Joplin 's death. He begged Pamela Courson to accompany him to Paris , which she did. Morrison was devastated by her temporary desertion

Now that's new to me,the Janis thing I mean!

also:

De Breteuil warned her that police would soon be at the scene and to flush away any remaining illegal drugs. She could tell the medical examiner that Morrison had heart disease. “Call your other friends,” he advised further. “Get them to help you. I must go now. Follow us to Morocco . I am sorry, darling. I love you. Goodbye.” Leaving Pamela with Jim's corpse, Jean raced back to his hotel, dragged Marianne out of bed and started slapping her. “Get packed! We are going to Morocco !” he shouted.

Ms Faithfull recalled, “Jean was scared for his life. Jim Morrison had OD'd and he had provided the smack. Jean saw himself as a dealer to the stars, but he was really just a small-time drug pusher in big trouble.”


read more:
http://www.observergroup.net/ob107back/stories.htm
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Post by Stuart »

Early June this year i was in paris on my 30th B-day Trip and i went up to rue de seine where the building which used to house the rock and roll circus was and i saw someone go inside the main door so i nipped in after this guy and i was in the long corridor which leads up the the actual door where inside was the r n r circus, as my french is 99% non existant i kept throwng out stock phrases to this french dude to ask if he could take a pic of me in the corridor which he kindly did and i said "Rock n Roll Circus", "Whisky a go go"(which it got called after the r n r circus changed management) then i said "Jim Morrison" then he said to me "Jim Morrison Died Here".

Was pretty cool actually getting into the actual corridor.
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Drugs and dens of iniquity

Post by vince »

Who supplied Janis with what does not matter. Not now anyway.

She dies and so did Jim. Again, no matter who says what we don't know the truth.

Ask me what I think - Heroine OD. Who and where - I don't have a clue.

Now, if someone says that Jim died in a corridore - that does bring some thoughts. How then did he get to the tub and when and why. That must have been an inside job because whomever moved him - assuming the corridore story is true - had to know where he lived and what apartment he lived in. HHmmm.....

Was Pam really asleep????

And this count bit - How could the police know he had provided the material to Pam? They didn't have the CSI to check the scene of the crime, how could the determine who brought the smack????

More BS - Is this some publicity stunt for pan, the count or both?

The mystery, and all connected with it, goes on. We can speculate, put some facts together and then it is all gues work after the reality ends.

One thing - Jim is dead, The music that he brought to so many people has ended, We are all left sand and empty. Why did it happen - Because Jim, for many years, was on a course of self destruction denomstrated by erratic behavior, legal troubles, physical and mental violence and many other manifistations of such an attitude.

We regret all this but cannot change it. Jim is gone and we all sit here asking why. The trail is clearly laid out by history. Only the final hours are shrouded in mystery.

The only satisfaction we have left is the ability to remember and listen to the legacy left to us by Jim, Ray, John and Robby.
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Stuart

Post by Stuart »

Vince!!! Jim didnt die in the corridor!! I didnt mean that!. On may 7th 1971 a french gentleman callled Gilles Yepremian was at the r n r circus....here is the interview again to clear up what i said....

http://tinyurl.com/nham9
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alain ronai

Post by claud »

is this guy still alive and who would be able to question /convince him to come up with the facts about the death cover up?
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Post by nephron »

claud

Gilles, I believe, is very much alive. However, I don't think he knows anymore than anyone else. Everyone involved directly is either dead, or won't talk honestly about it (Alain Ronay, Faithfull, etc.).

BTW--Darwin's great. I drove a 72 Peugot all over Australia in the 90's, after picking oranges (for $) in NSW. Drove out to the rock, and then straight up to Darwin. Swam in Katherine's Gorge with the fresh water croc's. Saw 'Charlie' at Darwin (largest Croc in captivity at the time). Good on ya mate! Fair Dinkum.

ps--I still have a Darwin 'stubby' sitting on my desk at work! Wonder what Morrison would have done with one of those? :shock:
"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."--Einstein on the death of a friend.
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