Questions For Vince

[MysticHeatedWine]

Good to hear. I had a few questions if Vince has time.

1. Is Vince still working on his book ?
2. When was the last time Vince saw Jim and spoke to him ?
3. What does Vince think of the Fink manuscript assuming he's read it ?
_________________

[Buda]

First of all, it is good to have you back Vince, I read all your recollections many a times and nevertheles to say, they gave a tremendous detail of what went on during that time so we can have a better picture. What I always wanted to know if you remember is that has Jim every messed with the others' instruments? I know he was fond of playing with the harp but only at times managed to handle it succesfully but can you recall any occasion when he, say, was messing with Robbie's guitar or sitting down at John's drumkit while you were setting up the things on stage or after a given show and pulled off something or at least wanted to test himself to some level?

My second one would be if you remember anything offensive from Jim's side taking place during the LA Woman sessions. I mean did you ever happened to catch/hear a row between him and one of the band members on the subject of recording a certain song and the way it should be delivered. I'm curious about this aspect as I would like to know dearly if there were any "Celebration of the Lizard King issues" regarding the final materials because of his dedication to certain tunes/themes on the last album. I can not imagine his level of dedication, looking at the photos of that time I can not answer to this properly enough. How deeply he wanted himself to be involved in the recording process or how careless he was if that's a better word to describe his approach.

The last one would be just a technical one if you might still remember, regarding your essay "1968 MARCH – FIRST MAJOR TOUR - TERRY POHL" which starts like this:
"The first major road trip of 1968 came in March, with the first performance in Rochester, New York on March 16."
That, what was the reason Hamilton (at Colgate University on March 15 1968) been left out? Merely by forgetfulness or this gig was not really part of the tour?

Thanks for your time!

[vince]

About the book - I have not touched it fro some time. I do think about it on occasion when people ask questions. It is pretty long and fairly details - though some people on the "Other Side" don't like the snipits of what has been revealed.

The last time I saw Jim was his back as he ascended the stairs in the warehouse in New Orleans. Quite honestly, I had the feeling that it would be the last time as well. Robby was silent and I believe Ray didn't say much more than "Well, I guess that's it". I cannot be sure that is accurate but it would be anticipated as it was made clear that if he did not perform it would be the last road trip. It was. I am not privy to what transpored in the office on our return. The truck engine blew up on the way back. We were in a hick town called Sulpher, Louisiana. Likely the most exciting thing that happened in that burg was the Civil war and Katrina.
If I had met him after the New Orleans "Performance" I am not certain of what I would have said. It would not have been complimentary on either hsi behavior or the quality of the performance.

Regards this Fink Manuscript - No I have not had the opportunity to read this. I can not comment on it. I did not know that one existed. I think he died some time ago. Understand that I have been out of touch, except through the Forum for the last 12 years and then the China period. I would be very interested in reading it. Max had an interesting relation with Jim and a very difficult time in court. Little of the true events are known and I think it very important that they should be.

Thanks for the questions.

[vince]

Hello Again:

Jim, to the best of my knowledge, did not touch John's drums. In fact, considering the involvement a drummer has with his instruments I was pretty lucky to be trusted as I was with the set-up and care of John's drums. He was fussy and demanding and the results of that is reflected in his music. Drummers are very protective of their drums because they are personal, the tensions on the heads, feel of the sticks, position of everything is very personal. John, as you all know, is one of the best and his demands for details contributes greatly to the fact that a fellow of his stature could produce so much music with what amounts to a basic drum kit.

If I comment further, I have often found it so humorous, so rediculous, that these guys with double basses, 50 cymbals and 20 floor toms can not produce the clear, sharp even delicate music the John could produce. Qualtity does not mean quality.

As for Robbies guitar - No one touched his guitars unless they had to be restrung. Even then, Robby always fussed with it to get it to his liking.

I think Jim respected that instruments were personal. Also that he could not play. His ventures into the harmonica were not really succesful and done more to imitate other singers/band members who used harmonicas as part of their "Blues" music. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It does mean that the effect is the same by the imitator.

The big problem with Jim at any recording session was to have him arrive on time, sober and in condition to sing. More than once session had to be revised because he was in no fit state to sing - either his voice was bad or he was not clear headed enough to satisfy the level of performance Paul required of him.

The attitude at last recordings are second hand. There was a general attitude of hostility underlying the relationship after New Orleans. There was a particular resentment over the performance, smashing the stage and then the abrupt departure leaving the guys sitting like fools with nothing to play and nowhere to go. It was embarassing for everyone in the staff. This was further aggravated by the fact that they made it clear they would never again play a public performance with Jim. He was also in a very poor mental state at that time leading to his running away to Paris to be the great "Poet".

I did not attend the actual recording sessions. In hind sight I regret this. I did the daily tour of the instruments to make sure that everything was in good order. I had been "Discharged" by Bob Greene and was, in fact, no longer officially working for the group. BUT - before there is a riot - I was also commanded by Bob NOT to take any permanent job and I was given unlimited use of the road equipment to do sound work for other groups and festivals. They still expected me to take care of things and make sure all was ready for the recording sessions. No problem with that.

I would have to say that, according to those I spoke with, the general attitude of the guys toward Jim was resentment tinged with hostility. The sesssions with Jim did not always go well. Remember that Bruce Botnick was in charge at that time and he did not know how to handle Jim, though he had training with years of working with Paul. That was not owing to any lack of attempt by Bruce, it was more the difference between the personality of Bruce and Paul. Pual had the more commanding demeanor. Bruce was the more casual.

Yes, I did make a mistake - shame on my face. We played at Colgate in a large auditorium with hundreds of kids. Paul was there as well.

I hope this answers all the questions. Boy that is 40 years ago. I suppose it is too bad that I did not get into the book expose right after the Doors closed like Sugarman. His whole concept of the Doors and Jim was that of a groupie taking advantage to make money off sensation. All the research was done by Jerry Hopkins and he should have benefitted by the results.

For now - Keep the questions coming. Thanks for asking.

[Buda]

Thanks Vince for taking the time to make these pretty informative response. I imagined the air should have been rather tense after the New Orleans gig but never wanted to guess how bad it was, that's why I was curious about it and strangely enough I never expected that you were not part of the LA Woman sessions during late December '70. Anyway, thanks again immensely for telling us these first-hand accounts! I will definitely come again with some more soon.

[vince]

Buda:

Glad to enlighten. Yes, that was a sad time, one step leading inexorably to tragedy.

[MysticHeatedWine]

Vince,

Sorry it took me so long to thank you for answering my questions but I've been traveling most of the summer and haven't been online much. I appreciate that you took the time.

With regard to your comment about Jim's not touching John's drums I guess that makes my Pittsburgh 1970 pics unique. With regard to the Fink manuscript, I had first brought it to the attention of members of this forum after I was able to buy it and then read it (it was released as a Kindle book) but shortly after it was removed. I guess either the band and/or Jim's family complained about it or maybe Frank since they used a pic of his without permission.

Please publish your book when you're ready to do so. I'm confident your take on Jim and the band would be an objective one and I'd love to read it.

Thanks again.

Michael

[vince]

Hello Michael:

I am rather glad to hear that the Fink report was taken from circulation. I found it filled with inaccuracies, rumor, half truths and inuendo. I do not find the basic soncepts improper or unacceptable, Perhaps he did have affairs with some guys. I know of two of them myself. OK, a lot of people do - so what. Shoplifting....? I rather doubt it. Died of an OD? I have long held this position and I could agree that Pam was involved. Paris Police not anting Hippies. true. Not liking Americans. Also true but they love the $$ to they are tolerant of "Visitors". The part about his relationship with the Ray, John and Robbie - Completely untrue. The Group failing because he was not with them? Untrue. Their failure was the addition of people and a radical change in music style. Most groups fail having gone through the same transformation.

Regards the Miami incident with "Thousands of witnesses..." that is just plain lies. He did not expose himself. He could not take his pants down. There are no photos of him showing anything except his upper body. I stopped reading at that point. I had enough.

this thing is written just as No One Here.... Based on a dreamer, fantasy, rumor. There was a will, it has been published. Corky did come after the estate and was never "Dear Daddy" to Pam. In fact they wanted nothing to do with her until he became aware that, after her death, he might be in line for a windfall. It is true that Jim did not want his parents to benefit from his estate and he did hate his mother. I gave examples of this long ago in my first contact with the Group. the rest - bed wetting - one could suggest that this is a portent of boy/boy tendencies. Again - So what, His life, his choice of partners. None of anyone's business.

Well, I am ranting, I was very upset when I read this this. I found it to be offensive, incredible, ill advised and ill conceived - among other things. The worst is the distortions of facts with imaginary "Conversations". Where are the original tapes of Max Fink saying all this stuff. We Want Proof.... We Want Proof.... We want Proof (with the appropriate mid-air fist pumping).

I think that wraps it up. I want not to discuss this repulsive piece of literature again.

Thanks for writing, Michael.

V.

[MysticHeatedWine]

Thanks for your take on the Fink manuscript, Vince. Since it, supposedly, contained the thoughts of Jim's lawyer I felt it warranted attention. We're each entitled to our opinion on it. Indeed, there was a lot of debate about it when people here read it. Regardless of what people think about what Max allegedly said in this interview he did, undeniably, help Jim several times when Jim was in legal trouble and Jim clearly trusted him or he wouldn't have asked Max to represent him. I do agree with you that it would be nice to hear the original interview tapes. Anyway, enough said. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[MysticHeatedWine]

Vince,

When, and if, you get time a few more questions came to mind:

1. Where were you and what were you doing when you got the news Jim was dead ?

2. After Jim's death did you ever go to Pere-Lachaise to pay your respects ?

3. In 1974 a Memorial Service was held for both Jim and Pam when Pam died. Did you attend it ?

Thanks in advance, as always, for your time and thoughts. Your opinions are respected, as they should be, since you knew Jim and the band and were there.

[vince]

OMG - I was just reading what I wrote. Rife with typos.

I must be clear - Tom Baker DID NOT EVER - under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, have anything to do wtih equipment. I omitted the words - Did not.

Sorry for the Typos, it is late and I am getting tired. Yes, yes, I know, excuses, excuses. I know you get the meaning in any case and thanks for the questions. I get so involved and my brain goes faster than my fingers (Though at my age it should be the reverse). I'll try to be a better proof reader.

Vince

[Buda]

Don't pay attention to the typos, it's the content that matters and thanks immensely for providing that!

I know you were not part of the band's carrier at the time of the Danbury High School gig (1967 Oct 11), but wasn't it Tom Baker who began that show by reading his poetry before the band stepped on stage?

[vince]

Buda:

Thanks for the comment. I came with the Doors on the last tour of 1967. First in San Francisco and then Denver - the Fmaily Dog. That was New Years Eve.

Regards Baker's apprearance in stage reading "His" poetry - First I have never heard of it. If so it had to be by special arrangement.

HOWEVER - I ask you. DO you think a bunch of excited teens, all hopped up and waiting for The Headline Group would sit through a poetry session by the likes of Baker? I know what happened when Ray tried to foist a Japanese Koto player on an Audience. It was shameful, and insult to the man. I often wondered what that poor fellow thought of Ray, the audience and his rude treatment.

I don't know why Jim tolerated Baker except he was a yes-man, a Kisser of the anus of those more popular and important. When Jim had money and was buying, Baker was present. When the money ran out and Jim dragged himself back to the office, I never saw Baker bring him in.
I don't know about Baker writing poetry. Perhaps it was as good as Material written by others, ByThe Woods..., Path not taken. Minor works like that and he could earn my respect as having some nuisance value.

Thanks for the message.

VInce

[Buda]

Although I have never had the privilige to read any of his works but what infos I have manage to gather about the fella, the man himself, underlies the very same properties you come up with regarding his manners so I don't think anyone loses a big thing if his work of art stays unread.
Clearly he was a leecher and all the stories about him is testimony about that.

Also regarding his reading prior to the show that night in Danbury, I guess he just wanted to prove sg. to himself or Jim and that's why he managed to got his chance supposedly from Jim..

Again, thanks for your take!

[MysticHeatedWine]

No offense taken Vince. I respect your views. You were there and I wasn't. I appreciate your time and your sincerity.

Another question if you don't mind: What, if anything, do you know about the discussions, if any, Ray, Robby and John had about possibly replacing Jim while he was in Paris ? Several sources have said they seriously thought about it.

[vince]

The question by hot wine Jim's replacement.

Yes, they did discuss it though no resolution was obtained. A singer is one who must present a certain character, presence, in his physical as well as vocal appearance. Jim was difficult to match. I dare say, then and now, that had they obtained the services of any good singer with that same sort of soft silky voice, but the same voice being manipulated as Jim oft did, they would have been on easy street - AS LONG AS - they did not change the style.

That was the deadly fault. that lead to the demise of the group.

They were in a quandry about eog's, pay, music rights, recording royalties and so on. You can understand the complexities of any new person stepping into the band. In Amsterdam, Ray did the leads and Robby did backup and it was a success. A wild wonderful smashing success. Add that one to my high points in Doors history.

The problem, and we all knew it, was that Ray could have have that dynamic moment at the mic while tied to his organ/bass. They did need a stand up singer who could do the thing. No matter how well ray could sing - and he could - he could not get the physical synamics at the proper level.

Who could - There were a lot of names in the hat. In the end, the whole format changed.

[Chris M]

Great to see you back Vince!

Do you remember the circumstances surrounding the band recording the Other Voices album while Jim was still alive in Paris? Save for Tighrope Ride the album was already in the can at the time of Jim's death. This makes me wonder if they had already made the decision to release the album before Jim's demise.

Thanks much for doing this Vince!

Chris

[MysticHeatedWine]

Thanks again Vince for your intelligent and honest answers.

I was curious as to whether you ever had any dealings with the band's original managers, Asher Dann and Sal Bonafede, or was that before your time ?

[vince]

Hello:

Regards the Other voices Album. I will state beforehand that I am NOT certain of my information. Having made that clear - On the first tour without Jim, Bruce Botnick had a compact mixing board and tape decks brought with the standard equipment. Bruce then recorded all the performances. That might be Other Voices.

Regards the times of this alternative group. After New Orleans in December 1970 the group retreated to Los Angeles. Angry, Discouraged, and defeated in the battle to have a "Normals" performance wherein Jim would sing, no one would be waiting for a police raid and the performance did not deteriorate into utter chaos.

I was told to put the equipment in good condition, make sure all was in working order. I was "Suspended" for an indefinite period and was, under no circumstances, to take another job. I was asked to be availale as necessary to serve the rehearsals, check the equipment, drums, and guitars. I was also requested to investigate a completely portable Hammond B-# model organ, custom fitted in a case for the road. As summer progressed it was more frequent call times for rehearsals in an old theater - stage and all - with Bruce riding the pots. Every rehearsal was with clothes. With a very well rehearsed program, with Bruce co-ordinated with the Music, lyrics and players, things were ready, indeed.

We went on tour. The guys performed top-notch as always. The problem - They played the wrong music.

to a concert. The goup plays their music. Then they play their smash hit and the audience goes crazy. They play a so-so piece and the applause is there but one could say "Muted". It was exactly so on this tour. If one had an applause meter you could have measured the difference by a fair margin.

To be honest, it was heart breaking. I felt very unhappy. I knew, by the time we ended the tour, that things were not going well. Of course the ugys were patting back, Bruce was up-beat everyone was telling everyone else how well it went. Technically, this was so true, without question. But regards the audience, they knew what they wanted to hear. It was not entirely what they heard.

the reat is sad history.

Thanks for the question. I do hope this is the answer.

Vince