The Doors Forum

they will sell it into parts and lossy ... a jampol classic

The Royal Sperm wrote:they will sell it into parts and lossy ... a jampol classic

There are flac and wav versions

anytimecowboy wrote:

The Royal Sperm wrote:they will sell it into parts and lossy ... a jampol classic

There are flac and wav versions

That's cool, but i still hate JJ

Took this screenshot from Apple Music. Looks like SK and LMF will also be released prior to the release date of the Deluxe Edition Box Set.

I downloaded "Break On Through" from iTunes to try and assess the quality of Bontick's mastering. This March 7 version of Break on Through was not on the Healy CD-R sampler or the 2008 2CD release, making direct comparison difficult.

Observations:

In relation to the sound quality of other March 7 tracks on the Healy CD-R sound sampler, such as The Crystal Ship, Botnick's 2017 remastering appears to significantly narrow the stereo separation and adds a bit of a "harder" digital sound in constrast to the warm tube-like quality of the straight transfers Abram made from the masters on the 2002 CD-R sent to Danny Sugerman. It also sounds like Botnick may have employed limiting and or compression in his latest effort. I will wait and keep and open mind about Botnick's treatment but I won't be buying any of these upcoming Doors s/t or Strange Days boxes to get a few Matrix crumbs. I'll wait to see if a proper complete box is finally released.

I won't buy it myself.Also Botnick is getting older and I don't trust his ears anymore...

I think before judging, everyone should acknowledge that making a mix of these recordings to please everyone is just impossible. What does "highest quality" even mean? If they are sourced from the masters, then they had the best chance of being the highest possible quality. The rest is down to how much a person likes the mix.

I, like most people here, would gladly listen to the harsh and dry Left-Right raw tracks, untouched. This is how we hear the most detail. But really, they are not pleasing on the ear to listen this way, and I cannot imagine Joe Public enjoying this mix. It is not a stereo image. It was never designed to be a stereo image. It is a multi-track recording. In this case, they only had two tracks. So Abrahms mixed the band down as best he could to the LEFT track, and the vocal to the RIGHT track. On March 10 I actually think he did a great job of mixing the band down to one channel on the fly.

So, from my perspective, Botnick didn't narrow the stereo image, he actually created something from the two channels of information he had. Do you like it? Do I like it? Meh. It's okay. Morrison is no longer singing directly into my right ear hole, and the band in a way loses a bit of it's definition but it's still pretty fucking clear sounding.

It will be interesting to hear how he's mixed the vocals and band for the better March 10 recording.

There seems to be noiw be general consensus that strange days will be released as a deluxe set in the same way as the eponymous album. Has this been announced? Or is it just assumptions

mystery_train67 wrote:I think before judging, everyone should acknowledge that making a mix of these recordings to please everyone is just impossible. What does "highest quality" even mean? If they are sourced from the masters, then they had the best chance of being the highest possible quality. The rest is down to how much a person likes the mix.

I, like most people here, would gladly listen to the harsh and dry Left-Right raw tracks, untouched. This is how we hear the most detail. But really, they are not pleasing on the ear to listen this way, and I cannot imagine Joe Public enjoying this mix. It is not a stereo image. It was never designed to be a stereo image. It is a multi-track recording. In this case, they only had two tracks. So Abrahms mixed the band down as best he could to the LEFT track, and the vocal to the RIGHT track. On March 10 I actually think he did a great job of mixing the band down to one channel on the fly.

So, from my perspective, Botnick didn't narrow the stereo image, he actually created something from the two channels of information he had. Do you like it? Do I like it? Meh. It's okay. Morrison is no longer singing directly into my right ear hole, and the band in a way loses a bit of it's definition but it's still pretty fucking clear sounding.

It will be interesting to hear how he's mixed the vocals and band for the better March 10 recording.

There is no "mix" possible. It's a twin track recording. Botnick can't remix anything (only changing panning and/or loudness of one track in relation to the other). Botnick just panned the two existing channels closer together and adjusted channel loudness. I don't necessarily have an issue with that. What does concern me about an eventual box is the "hard" and digital sound of this iTunes clip compared to the March 7 clips on the 2002 Abrams sampler. We can presume Botnick dumped this stuff into a digital workstation and did some digital signal processing. Like, I said, I will buy a complete Matrix box and keep and open mind but this new clip is a little underwhelming compared to the warmth of the tapes we heard on the March 7 tracks on the 2002 CD-R.

anytimecowboy wrote:There seems to be noiw be general consensus that strange days will be released as a deluxe set in the same way as the eponymous album. Has this been announced? Or is it just assumptions

Nicole said in Hoffman's forum that it will get the same treatment, also about a full Matrix Cd Box Set and LP Matrix releases

The Royal Sperm wrote:

anytimecowboy wrote:There seems to be noiw be general consensus that strange days will be released as a deluxe set in the same way as the eponymous album. Has this been announced? Or is it just assumptions

Nicole said in Hoffman's forum that it will get the same treatment, also about a full Matrix Cd Box Set and LP Matrix releases

Ah I see. But still wasn't Nicole removed from here for ...?
I mean I believe it. Its clearly what they will do but now we all believe Nicole?

hardrockcafe wrote:

mystery_train67 wrote:I think before judging, everyone should acknowledge that making a mix of these recordings to please everyone is just impossible. What does "highest quality" even mean? If they are sourced from the masters, then they had the best chance of being the highest possible quality. The rest is down to how much a person likes the mix.

I, like most people here, would gladly listen to the harsh and dry Left-Right raw tracks, untouched. This is how we hear the most detail. But really, they are not pleasing on the ear to listen this way, and I cannot imagine Joe Public enjoying this mix. It is not a stereo image. It was never designed to be a stereo image. It is a multi-track recording. In this case, they only had two tracks. So Abrahms mixed the band down as best he could to the LEFT track, and the vocal to the RIGHT track. On March 10 I actually think he did a great job of mixing the band down to one channel on the fly.

So, from my perspective, Botnick didn't narrow the stereo image, he actually created something from the two channels of information he had. Do you like it? Do I like it? Meh. It's okay. Morrison is no longer singing directly into my right ear hole, and the band in a way loses a bit of it's definition but it's still pretty fucking clear sounding.

It will be interesting to hear how he's mixed the vocals and band for the better March 10 recording.

There is no "mix" possible. It's a twin track recording. Botnick can't remix anything (only changing panning and/or loudness of one track in relation to the other). Botnick just panned the two existing channels closer together and adjusted channel loudness. I don't necessarily have an issue with that. What does concern me about an eventual box is the "hard" and digital sound of this iTunes clip compared to the March 7 clips on the 2002 Abrams sampler. We can presume Botnick dumped this stuff into a digital workstation and did some digital signal processing. Like, I said, I will buy a complete Matrix box and keep and open mind but this new clip is a little underwhelming compared to the warmth of the tapes we heard on the March 7 tracks on the 2002 CD-R.

... That's mixing. He didn't re-mix anything, he mixed a twin track recording into a stereo image as his ears saw fit. There can be more finer details to it also. Have you ever folded any of these matrix recordings down to mono? They aren't without their phase issues. I am not a pro in this area but there are a variety of sum and difference techniques that can be used to make the two tracks blend better in a mono context, plus ducking compressors etc. He may even have simply altered the phase of one of the channels. It's been years since I tinkered with these but I recall they did not fold down into coherent mono mixes without phase issues. I think Bruce has used a very good and subtle reverb to put that vocal "in the room". It's not really my cup of tea, but it sounds good. I can't imagine any one version of this recording being satisfying. Botnick comes from the old days where mic placement, spill, and mixing techniques were planned ahead. They worked like a biodynamic farm getting things in balance from the get go. Not like producers these days who can get away with the whole affair being a post job. I don't much like what he did with the AL releases, but in this case, even though I'm not a fan of the end mix, I can respect what he's tried to do. In a sense, it's harder to mix this than an AL show, because he has so many less options available to him.

As for this digital hardness, I either don't hear what you're hearing, or I don't know what to look for. This is an esoteric thing.

The Abrams samples are digital files, they don't sound as though they were recorded through a cheap presonus ADDA converter into a 2007 macbook pro, and neither does Botnicks version.

I heard a brief clip of bot from a digital provider and i actually prefer the abrahms samples by a long way.
Im not an expert audiophile by any means

But given the samples were raw and through youtube even allowing for lossy mp3 playback on my android that is a telling comparison. Still gotta wait and see

I cant believe botnicks handling of the masters can meaningfully fuck up compared to the streamed raw 2 track. Surely?

on the doors instagram for sale a long sleeve thermal shirt ... with a promo code staywarm.. doesnt it give you any idea for whats coming this year ?50th ann socks with a collectors gold sticker and a free 50th ann boxer witha promo code stayclean?

anytimecowboy wrote:I heard a brief clip of bot from a digital provider and i actually prefer the abrahms samples by a long way.
Im not an expert audiophile by any means

But given the samples were raw and through youtube even allowing for lossy mp3 playback on my android that is a telling comparison. Still gotta wait and see

I cant believe botnicks handling of the masters can meaningfully fuck up compared to the streamed raw 2 track. Surely?

Botnick hasn't fucked anything up. He has tried to balance that recording out to make it listenable. I personally don't mind the raw two track sound, but it's not very easy on the ear, and the dryness of it advertises the imperfections in Morrisons vocal. Botnick has tried to balance this out by putting some more of the band in the right channel, and using a subtle reverb to make the vocal sound like it's in that same space the band is playing in- so it's less dry, less direct.

All I'm saying it it's a matter of preference, and I would make the assumption that Joe Public would prefer something balanced and easy on the ear, rather than the dry and detail heavy raw two track master sound we hear on the samples.

All this aside- we've heard one song from March 7. The remaining sets may not even be completed yet.

lizardkingteo wrote:on the doors instagram for sale a long sleeve thermal shirt ... with a promo code staywarm.. doesnt it give you any idea for whats coming this year ?50th ann socks with a collectors gold sticker and a free 50th ann boxer witha promo code stayclean?

these T-shits are amazing! who needs music?

mystery_train67 wrote:

anytimecowboy wrote:I heard a brief clip of bot from a digital provider and i actually prefer the abrahms samples by a long way.
Im not an expert audiophile by any means

But given the samples were raw and through youtube even allowing for lossy mp3 playback on my android that is a telling comparison. Still gotta wait and see

I cant believe botnicks handling of the masters can meaningfully fuck up compared to the streamed raw 2 track. Surely?

Botnick hasn't fucked anything up. He has tried to balance that recording out to make it listenable. I personally don't mind the raw two track sound, but it's not very easy on the ear, and the dryness of it advertises the imperfections in Morrisons vocal. Botnick has tried to balance this out by putting some more of the band in the right channel, and using a subtle reverb to make the vocal sound like it's in that same space the band is playing in- so it's less dry, less direct.

All I'm saying it it's a matter of preference, and I would make the assumption that Joe Public would prefer something balanced and easy on the ear, rather than the dry and detail heavy raw two track master sound we hear on the samples.

All this aside- we've heard one song from March 7. The remaining sets may not even be completed yet.

yeah I do get what you are saying.

I just compared the new master source on spotify with a boot of march 7th, the Abrams 2 track samples and the 2007 BMR release. I still much prefer the Abrams 2002 samples. They are much more enjoyable to listen to to me, and more satisfying, clearer, sharper, better. Admittedly it was all through lossy streaming and not great headphones but the abrams (sp..) samples shone right through, I think they just need some EQ adjustment, very fine tuning to get the harshness of the high end levels and otherwise left as is

I'd prefer, in case they had any generosity left, after years of all the hassle and fraud, if they would make available the untouched, raw, lossless digital master copy of the complete thing in high rez HD Tracks. Be it included as a free download upon purchase or as a separate treat besides the Botnick version. That would boost its sales and hardly make the costs more. Have they thought about that? Highly doubt it.

So just keep standing on the ground and remind myself that it would be already a fucking bless if they would release it one day. Finally.

The Royal Sperm wrote:

lizardkingteo wrote:on the doors instagram for sale a long sleeve thermal shirt ... with a promo code staywarm.. doesnt it give you any idea for whats coming this year ?50th ann socks with a collectors gold sticker and a free 50th ann boxer witha promo code stayclean?

these T-shits are amazing! who needs music?

Did Jampol proofread that t-shirt? "EST. 1967" ??? The band formed in 1965.

hardrockcafe wrote:

The Royal Sperm wrote:

lizardkingteo wrote:on the doors instagram for sale a long sleeve thermal shirt ... with a promo code staywarm.. doesnt it give you any idea for whats coming this year ?50th ann socks with a collectors gold sticker and a free 50th ann boxer witha promo code stayclean?

these T-shits are amazing! who needs music?

Did Jampol proofread that t-shirt? "EST. 1967" ??? The band formed in 1965.

those are T - SHITS! not shirts

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The raw tracks are beautiful to listen to once.
The problem is that the recording of march 7 is inconsistent because the position of the micros is different along the different sets, right? (the march 10 recording is much better), I made a quick mix in five minutes of Crawling King Snake master sampler with cool edit pro and audacity:

I´ve created two different tracks, one with the left channel info and one with the right channel (Jim)
-I´ve lowered the dbs and applied a little reverberation only in the right channel
-Then mix the two tracks in one (mono track, same info in the 2 channels) and then a quick fake stereo with cool edit

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/85a26a ... 704/6cbf05

(here the master and the mix)

Row 1: Target CD, Regular late 80´s, DCC, 99 Remasters, SHM CD Japan, 2006 Mix, AP SACD
Row 2: 99 Cube Box, 2003 Large Box, Perception Peephole Box, Perception Slipcase, Perception Japan, The Doors Collection, Italian Collection
Row 3: Rhino, 2010 RSD Mono, Mofi, Classic Albums
Row 4: AP's 45 rpm, From 2008 Box, From 2008 Box Mono

and i'm still looking for a NM copy of the DCC Vinyl.

No cassette ?

zarza29 wrote:The raw tracks are beautiful to listen to once.
The problem is that the recording of march 7 is inconsistent because the position of the micros is different along the different sets, right? (the march 10 recording is much better), I made a quick mix in five minutes of Crawling King Snake master sampler with cool edit pro and audacity:

I´ve created two different tracks, one with the left channel info and one with the right channel (Jim)
-I´ve lowered the dbs and applied a little reverberation only in the right channel
-Then mix the two tracks in one (mono track, same info in the 2 channels) and then a quick fake stereo with cool edit

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/85a26a ... 704/6cbf05

(here the master and the mix)

This sounds pretty good. I like it. The artificial stereo is subtle, and works mainly to spread the presence of the cymbals and the natural room reverb, from what I can tell? I think it would narrow up real obviously if we were to hear it without the fake stereo- would be keen to A/B these. By comparison, Botnick has buried the vocals.

It's just what I was talking about, the recording of march 7 have different quality, i think that Snake is much better recording that BOT for example,Botnick has done what he could with the recording

anytimecowboy wrote:No cassette ?

also missed the 8-track and Reel To Reel tape

I think I have an 8 traxk tape. And a cassette.

Just ordered in Amazon.co.uk, i used the code BIGTHANKS (worth only for today Jan 20th) and it will be dispatched to Perú for USD$ 35 (including S&H) now is a really good price

Hate for my first post here to be a little negative but this is all a little too much but no one is forcing me to buy it. Would love to see more "new" stuff like London Fog to come out. The Doors mono mixes are cool but enjoy the stereo original mixes with few exceptions.