Should the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored?
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- StrangeNightOfStone
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Should the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored?
The Doors have yet to release a complete audio soundtrack of their July 1968 Hollywood Bowl performance.
The video was incomplete, with all of 'Hello I Love you' having been omitted, as well as the first half of 'Spanish Caravan'. Most of the vocals of the 2nd half of 'Light My Fire' was replaced with LMF vocals from a different performance. (Felt Forum I believe)
When Jim took the foam cover off his microphone, he apparently created static or feedback that was recorded -hence the need for all the overdubs-
*But given the advances in technology over the past 20 years- couldn't the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored to an acurate representation?
*I've read the only reason 'Hello I Love You' was omitted was because there was only 1 camera angle- so the audio must be fine...
*Unless the master reels were somehow damaged in the 1980s restoration process- could- and SHOULD the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored and released? And even if it could be restored- will the Doors follow through?
Even when the video came out, the cd soundtrack we got was pathetic- it was only 3 or so songs, as Paul Rothchild didn't want to repeat any tracks that were on Absolutely live....
The performance itself was a bit weak- not their best, but not their worst- But I would like the complete show on cd...
The video was incomplete, with all of 'Hello I Love you' having been omitted, as well as the first half of 'Spanish Caravan'. Most of the vocals of the 2nd half of 'Light My Fire' was replaced with LMF vocals from a different performance. (Felt Forum I believe)
When Jim took the foam cover off his microphone, he apparently created static or feedback that was recorded -hence the need for all the overdubs-
*But given the advances in technology over the past 20 years- couldn't the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored to an acurate representation?
*I've read the only reason 'Hello I Love You' was omitted was because there was only 1 camera angle- so the audio must be fine...
*Unless the master reels were somehow damaged in the 1980s restoration process- could- and SHOULD the Hollywood Bowl audio be restored and released? And even if it could be restored- will the Doors follow through?
Even when the video came out, the cd soundtrack we got was pathetic- it was only 3 or so songs, as Paul Rothchild didn't want to repeat any tracks that were on Absolutely live....
The performance itself was a bit weak- not their best, but not their worst- But I would like the complete show on cd...
"Sometimes I wonder how long the blues is gonna last-cause' every song sounds like the one before last."
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I'd love to hear a complete audio version. My impression is that there are some missing pieces of songs from the master tapes. If a decent audience source survives, perhaps they could add the audience source in place of the missing parts like the upcoming FF. That being said, it is doubtful a complete audio release of the HB ever gets issued....
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Absolutely should be restored. I'm surprised they haven't considering they have the raw footage and multitrack audio. The official release has some major flaws.
I really dislike the mixes on the official HB. The way it was mixed and the reverb used makes it sound hollow and weak. Especially the drums. It is really lacking in low end too. Mid 1980's production and mixing values don't work woth material from the 60's.
Then there are LMF vocals 'flown in' from the AL tapes that stick out like a sore thumb considering how much his vocals had changed by the AL concerts. I think they should reissue it and use the original vocals. Any mic pops and static could easily be removed or at least mitigated with modern technology, something much more difficult 23 years ago. The original LMH vocals (heard on he aud tape) or so much better. The FOF mix of The End is MUCH better..
Then here is the fake overdubbed siren used in Unknown Soilder, no HILY and missing Spanish Caravan intro and IIRC gtr overdubs in Moonlight Drive and some AL vocals flown in from WTMO.
I think they should take the raw footage and re-assemble the show from scratch. This time the entire show complete cheathing where neccessary in spots where there is poor coverage. Bonus material can be a few songs put together with alt angles.
I'd aslo love to see that cheesy exploding Doors logo dropped and the tacky "Jim Morrison - vocals", "John Densmore - drums" etc obscuring the (IIRC) intro to WTMO.
I really dislike the mixes on the official HB. The way it was mixed and the reverb used makes it sound hollow and weak. Especially the drums. It is really lacking in low end too. Mid 1980's production and mixing values don't work woth material from the 60's.
Then there are LMF vocals 'flown in' from the AL tapes that stick out like a sore thumb considering how much his vocals had changed by the AL concerts. I think they should reissue it and use the original vocals. Any mic pops and static could easily be removed or at least mitigated with modern technology, something much more difficult 23 years ago. The original LMH vocals (heard on he aud tape) or so much better. The FOF mix of The End is MUCH better..
Then here is the fake overdubbed siren used in Unknown Soilder, no HILY and missing Spanish Caravan intro and IIRC gtr overdubs in Moonlight Drive and some AL vocals flown in from WTMO.
I think they should take the raw footage and re-assemble the show from scratch. This time the entire show complete cheathing where neccessary in spots where there is poor coverage. Bonus material can be a few songs put together with alt angles.
I'd aslo love to see that cheesy exploding Doors logo dropped and the tacky "Jim Morrison - vocals", "John Densmore - drums" etc obscuring the (IIRC) intro to WTMO.
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Well said. I remember that awful sounding joke of a Hollywood Bowl CD they issued in 87 - only a handful of tracks and awful sound quality.Chris M wrote:Absolutely should be restored. I'm surprised they haven't considering they have the raw footage and multitrack audio. The official release has some major flaws.
I really dislike the mixes on the official HB. The way it was mixed and the reverb used makes it sound hollow and weak. Especially the drums. It is really lacking in low end too. Mid 1980's production and mixing values don't work woth material from the 60's.
Then there are LMF vocals 'flown in' from the AL tapes that stick out like a sore thumb considering how much his vocals had changed by the AL concerts. I think they should reissue it and use the original vocals. Any mic pops and static could easily be removed or at least mitigated with modern technology, something much more difficult 23 years ago. The original LMH vocals (heard on he aud tape) or so much better. The FOF mix of The End is MUCH better..
Then here is the fake overdubbed siren used in Unknown Soilder, no HILY and missing Spanish Caravan intro and IIRC gtr overdubs in Moonlight Drive and some AL vocals flown in from WTMO.
I think they should take the raw footage and re-assemble the show from scratch. This time the entire show complete cheathing where neccessary in spots where there is poor coverage. Bonus material can be a few songs put together with alt angles.
I'd aslo love to see that cheesy exploding Doors logo dropped and the tacky "Jim Morrison - vocals", "John Densmore - drums" etc obscuring the (IIRC) intro to WTMO.
They should also do a new hi definition transfer of the original 16mm film elements prior to re-editing the show. I wonder if it's possible to undo the slow motion effects or if the camera man actually use the slo mo mode when filming. I suppose they could speed it up digitally.
- StrangeNightOfStone
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- Buda
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Actually I was and guess still thinking about a revision of the official dvd having the audience source too (with missing songs or a possible matrix sound on the table) so I bet it would be just as highly essential as the Roundhouse footage revisit but I guess its (RH) too expensive for even the Doors camp to invest in and thats why they are not even planning doing it for years/decades but with today's digital remastering possibilities at hand, if they'd want, they could present it in colour.
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The Singer Bowl blew it out of the water, but given the fact this is the only complete concert they have from '68, it needs to be restored and released. A deluxe set including alternate angles and photos would be cool. Going back and listening to my copy of the Spanish Caravan intro they edited out, there is nothing wrong with the audio from that section.
- lizardkingteo
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I was talking about footage. I don't think the Roundhouse shows are complete. They probably were at one time, but I think the Doors only have copies of what was used by Granada. There's some nice chunks of concerts..Cleveland, Singer Bowl, San Jose, but I meant footage with sb or multi track audio.
I suppose you could also refer to audio as well. What other shows do they have from '68 with crisp audio? I don't know if they worked out a deal yet for Stockholm.
I suppose you could also refer to audio as well. What other shows do they have from '68 with crisp audio? I don't know if they worked out a deal yet for Stockholm.
- theyreawasteoftime
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- lizardkingteo
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i thought they were taping parts of the singer bowl for FoF .who has the whole tape ? Paul ? thats why they used so much singer bowl footage for WYS .
also Greg you said something about releasing ano official release with different angles ,so the Sb was filmed from another taper ,do you know who is it ?
i ve heard the SB and its a great concert imo despite the riot and the cursings in there and thats something to wait to see in a official dvd release ...or not
also Greg you said something about releasing ano official release with different angles ,so the Sb was filmed from another taper ,do you know who is it ?
i ve heard the SB and its a great concert imo despite the riot and the cursings in there and thats something to wait to see in a official dvd release ...or not
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Yes, I said they were filming parts of those concerts for FOF, but they do not have the entire SB. The ONLY show filmed in it's entirety (by the Doors) was the HB. The reels that Paul was using were not very long. I don't remember what he said? Maybe they were 15-20min reels? Starting and stopping to get certain shots, but not one continuous shot. The Doors have this footage. They were on a budget with FOF, so maybe they were only using x amount of film for each location? Maybe Paul can shed more light on this.
I was talking about releasing the HB using the alt. angles, because they had multiple cameras for that one.
I was talking about releasing the HB using the alt. angles, because they had multiple cameras for that one.
- StrangeNightOfStone
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At some point, they should consider issuing a Blu Ray of the complete performance, re-edited.
The 1987 release probably had it's 16mm film elements transferred to u-matic tape (standard back in the day) for editing at horizontal resolution of a mere 330 lines. Remember this was intended in 1987 for release on consumer grade VHS tape, which yielded only 240 lines of low resolution visual information.
Fast forward to 2009. If they digitally scanned the original source 16mm reels at several thousand lines of resolution, created a new edit digitally, color corrected digitally, cleansed the print digitally, and then downsampled the final edit to 1080 lines for Blu Ray, the results could look quite stunning visually. It would be a snap to remove lint, scratches and imperfections digitally compared to the primitive and even barbaric technology available back in 1987 for home video production.
Add to this a high resolution 5.1 mix and you've got one hell of a great product to warrant a re-edit.
There were also some great suggestions by others here on this board of offering multiple camera angles on the Blu Ray disc. At a minimum the Blu Ray should be re-edited by an objective third party director. Manzarek's 1987 edit leaves things to be desired. Incomplete and somewhat indulgent.
The slow mo photography (probably done in-camera back in 1968 by increasing the filming speed) is quite dated and could be corrected digitally to run at normal speed.
The 1987 release probably had it's 16mm film elements transferred to u-matic tape (standard back in the day) for editing at horizontal resolution of a mere 330 lines. Remember this was intended in 1987 for release on consumer grade VHS tape, which yielded only 240 lines of low resolution visual information.
Fast forward to 2009. If they digitally scanned the original source 16mm reels at several thousand lines of resolution, created a new edit digitally, color corrected digitally, cleansed the print digitally, and then downsampled the final edit to 1080 lines for Blu Ray, the results could look quite stunning visually. It would be a snap to remove lint, scratches and imperfections digitally compared to the primitive and even barbaric technology available back in 1987 for home video production.
Add to this a high resolution 5.1 mix and you've got one hell of a great product to warrant a re-edit.
There were also some great suggestions by others here on this board of offering multiple camera angles on the Blu Ray disc. At a minimum the Blu Ray should be re-edited by an objective third party director. Manzarek's 1987 edit leaves things to be desired. Incomplete and somewhat indulgent.
The slow mo photography (probably done in-camera back in 1968 by increasing the filming speed) is quite dated and could be corrected digitally to run at normal speed.
- StrangeNightOfStone
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Clearly the Singer Bowl was a FAR better performance than the Hollywood Bowl.....but how did the Hollywood Bowl gig rate compared to the other Doors performances from the spring and summer of 68'?
One of the greatest Doors shows from 68' was at the Back Bay Theatre in Boston in March....
Interesting how, like the later Hollywood Bowl performance of 'The End', Jim incorperated 'The accident outside' poem during 'The End' in Boston...
"Have you seen the accident outside
seven people took a ride
six bachelors, and their bride...
seven people......took a ride
seven people DIED...."
Oddly enough Jim chose not to sing the 'Seven People died' line at the Hollywood bowl- YET that line was in the lyrics in the official illustrated lyrics book (the one with Paris Blues)
Was 'The Accident outside' poem performed during 'The End' at the Singer Bowl?
One of the greatest Doors shows from 68' was at the Back Bay Theatre in Boston in March....
Interesting how, like the later Hollywood Bowl performance of 'The End', Jim incorperated 'The accident outside' poem during 'The End' in Boston...
"Have you seen the accident outside
seven people took a ride
six bachelors, and their bride...
seven people......took a ride
seven people DIED...."
Oddly enough Jim chose not to sing the 'Seven People died' line at the Hollywood bowl- YET that line was in the lyrics in the official illustrated lyrics book (the one with Paris Blues)
Was 'The Accident outside' poem performed during 'The End' at the Singer Bowl?
"Sometimes I wonder how long the blues is gonna last-cause' every song sounds like the one before last."
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I 100% agree with you The Singer Bowl performance is much better than the Hollywood Bowl, but the Hollywood Bowl setlist IMO is better. What also makes the Singer Bowl special is the "NEVER PERFORMED ON PUBLIC STAGE" version of Wild Child!!!!! I love that song!!!!StrangeNightOfStone wrote:How do you all think the Hollywood Bowl performance rates compared to the Singer Bowl performance? In my opinion the Doors were SO much better at the Singer Bowl...
- StrangeNightOfStone
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spyma2 wrote:I 100% agree with you The Singer Bowl performance is much better than the Hollywood Bowl, but the Hollywood Bowl setlist IMO is better. What also makes the Singer Bowl special is the "NEVER PERFORMED ON PUBLIC STAGE" version of Wild Child!!!!! I love that song!!!!StrangeNightOfStone wrote:How do you all think the Hollywood Bowl performance rates compared to the Singer Bowl performance? In my opinion the Doors were SO much better at the Singer Bowl...
I always wondered if Jim said that in reference to 'Wild Child', or to the many poems recited during WTMO....
"Sometimes I wonder how long the blues is gonna last-cause' every song sounds like the one before last."
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- StrangeNightOfStone
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Lets compare the setlists (songs and poetry)-
Friday, July 5th, 1968
Hollywood Bowl - Hollywood, CA
1. When The Music's Over
2. Alabama Song/ Back Door Man/Five To One/Backdoor man
3. Hello, I Love You
4. Moonlight Drive/Horse Latitudes
5. A Little Game/The Hill Dwellers
6. Spanish Caravan
7. Wake Up/Light My Fire
8. The Unknown Soldier
9. The End/ Accident Outside/ Grasshopper/ Ensenada/The End
Singer Bowl setlist:
August 2nd, 1968
The Singer Bowl - N.Y.
1. Back Door Man/Five To One
2. Break On Through
3. When The Music's Over/ Vast Radiant Beach/Dawn's Highway/ The Royal Sperm/When The Music's Over
4. Wild Child
5. Wake Up/Light My Fire
6. The End/ Fall Down Now/ I'm Coming, I Hear You Calling-/ The Creature's Nursing It's Child/Don't Come Here, Don't Come In/Ensenada/The End
How would you all rate 'The End' from Hollywood Bowl vs 'The End' from the Singer Bowl?
The Singer Bowl was good...but pales in comparison to my favorite early '68 Doors gig, at the Back Bay Theatre in Boston, MA
March 17th, 1968.
Back Bay Theater - Boston, MA
LATE SHOW:
1. When The Music's Over
2. Back Door Man/Five To One/ Backdoor Man
3. Break On Through/There You Sit/Break On Through
4. Love Me Two Times
5. You're Lost, Little Girl
6. Light My Fire
7. The End/Across The Sea/ Accident Outside/My Name Is The Holy Sha/Ensenda/The End
Friday, July 5th, 1968
Hollywood Bowl - Hollywood, CA
1. When The Music's Over
2. Alabama Song/ Back Door Man/Five To One/Backdoor man
3. Hello, I Love You
4. Moonlight Drive/Horse Latitudes
5. A Little Game/The Hill Dwellers
6. Spanish Caravan
7. Wake Up/Light My Fire
8. The Unknown Soldier
9. The End/ Accident Outside/ Grasshopper/ Ensenada/The End
Singer Bowl setlist:
August 2nd, 1968
The Singer Bowl - N.Y.
1. Back Door Man/Five To One
2. Break On Through
3. When The Music's Over/ Vast Radiant Beach/Dawn's Highway/ The Royal Sperm/When The Music's Over
4. Wild Child
5. Wake Up/Light My Fire
6. The End/ Fall Down Now/ I'm Coming, I Hear You Calling-/ The Creature's Nursing It's Child/Don't Come Here, Don't Come In/Ensenada/The End
How would you all rate 'The End' from Hollywood Bowl vs 'The End' from the Singer Bowl?
The Singer Bowl was good...but pales in comparison to my favorite early '68 Doors gig, at the Back Bay Theatre in Boston, MA
March 17th, 1968.
Back Bay Theater - Boston, MA
LATE SHOW:
1. When The Music's Over
2. Back Door Man/Five To One/ Backdoor Man
3. Break On Through/There You Sit/Break On Through
4. Love Me Two Times
5. You're Lost, Little Girl
6. Light My Fire
7. The End/Across The Sea/ Accident Outside/My Name Is The Holy Sha/Ensenda/The End
"Sometimes I wonder how long the blues is gonna last-cause' every song sounds like the one before last."
- StrangeNightOfStone
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dj_vera wrote:Both versions of The End are good. The Hollywood Bowl version is much more polished in my opinion, while the Singer Bowl version has more poetic improve and blood curdling screams from Jim, which is always a delight to hear!
How do the Hollywood Bowl and Singer Bowl versions of 'The End' compare to the version performed at the Back Bay Theatre?
"Sometimes I wonder how long the blues is gonna last-cause' every song sounds like the one before last."
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The version from Boston '68 is really good and does indeed have similarities to both of the 'Bowl' versions. Boston '68's version of The End has a similar 'Accident' improv section like we've heard from the HB recording and it kinda has the same intensity as the Singer Bowl version (sans the riot). Overall Boston '68 is one of the best shows from '68 and is probably the closest we'll get to Fillmore East for a while.StrangeNightOfStone wrote:
How do the Hollywood Bowl and Singer Bowl versions of 'The End' compare to the version performed at the Back Bay Theatre?
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Singer Bowl is much better than the Hollywood Bowl. I also prefer The End from the Singer Bowl. The HB version is good, but it reminds me of Detroit or the Isle Of Wight. They all had potential but something is missing? They either never got off the ground, or fall apart halfway through.
Boston is really good, but it's hard to choose between that and the Singer Bowl. They're both intense shows.
My favorite version of The End is from the Matrix.
Boston is really good, but it's hard to choose between that and the Singer Bowl. They're both intense shows.
My favorite version of The End is from the Matrix.