Ray and John's Books

[Stuart]

Hi Vince, I was wondering what you think of both Ray and John's Books?(Ray:Light My Fire:My Life with The Doors. John: Riders on on the Storm:My Life with Jim Morrison and The Doors)what one do you personally feel to be the most fair and accurate regarding The Doors and Jim.

[vince]

I have read only Ray's book. I have not had the opportunity to read the book which John wrote.

I found Ray's book to be interesting in the contend. It certainly gave a good deal of his background and the development of his interest in the music then popular in the clubs when Ray was young.

Though it is honest of Ray to expose so much of the early years when he, Dorothy and Jim were living together and in UCLA. There is a great deal of dicussion about the use of drugs and drinking. But this is truth and Ray is a brave guy to put all this on paper.

I think that the second part of the book, after the meeting of John and Robbie and the formation of the group, was very interesting in content and presentation.

One ting that shows is Ray adulation fo Jim. He puts Jim on an Ivory TOwer and makes him a Hero. ray also has a very honest approach to his feelings about and the group's treatment of, Jims frinking and behavior problems. His regret and introspection is sincere and genuine. It is so sad for all of us that those feelingd that Ray had then, were not implimented in some manner. Perhaps Jim would be alive.

Like all books, Ray has the benefit of history to recognize problems and probable solutions. It is also seen that Ray understood the depth of the problem and was frustrated by his past friendship and association with Jim. It prevented him form implimenting the actions that might have saved Jim form an untimely end.

In all, I would say that Ray has written a very honest and fairly accurate story about himself and his tour of fame with the other boys. I think he did clear up some of the myth and mystery about many events of those times.

Is it the whole truth. No, I think not. But I believe that Ray was pretty honest in what he said about himself.

There is a problem in the book that has caused dissention within the group and this is his comments about John's feelings toward Jim.
Please remember, I was not allowed by Siddons to be in on the weekly meetings of the group. I was therefor pretty ignorant of the actual events and converstaions of the meetings. I was told, by Bill and others who were present, some of the proceedings. These bits of information, and actual events, is what I base my information and conclusions on. Because of the isolation I cannot confirm that John ever made sugestions that Jim be eliminated from the group. I think Ray, in the passage of time, took John's decision not to play in public with Jim as a suggestion that Jim should be dismissed.

I any case, it is regrettable that this statement has caused an orrepairable rift between John and Ray. They no longer speak. TO me, this is one more effect of Jim's behavior on the group.

Does this answer your question?

Thanks for your visit.

I would recommend Ray's book. I would also suggest that one should read John's book as well

[Stuart]

Yeah Vince, Thanks for your response, very interesting. I hope you have not saw Ray's "Movie" "Love Her Madly" it is vomit on cellioud, atrocious"film" by ray.

I Quite Liked HWY And FoF, preferred FOF myself.

[Stuart]

To me Vince It's Crystal Clear that Jim had the talent for filmaking i cite of course highway and fof which are very enjoyable, highway is an experimental film vince.

Ray's "Film" love Her Madly imo is quite simply the worst film ever made.

Imo Manzarek as a musician is a genius but as a human being,he's an asshole and is quite simply a disgrace to the memory of James Douglas Morrison.

[vince]

Back again I see, Stuart. Nice of oyu,

I will admit that people will disagree on what is good and not. Personal taste is really subjective. Feast of Friends was not Jim's product. It was the result of having a film crew follow the Doors around during 1968 and film as opportunity present itself. It took all the skill of Frank Lisciandro to put that together and make any sense of it. However, the result was not a success by any measure. It was too long to be considered as a short, and certainly far to short to fulfill a feature or documentary catagory - They tried for both. The Doors themselves were never happy with the result.

When we went to England in 1968, a film crew from the Granada TV section followed us around during the tour. Withing 2 months of our returnt o LA they came over with the finished film. That was what the Doors had expected. It was far more professionally filmed and must more interesting in content and continuity. Granada offered it tothe Doors and someone said NO - They liked their product. That was a stupid as it was arrogant. I do not know who made the decision for rejection but it would have been far better for them to have accepted it and put the ego trip aside.

Highway, experimental or not, has been panned by just about everyone who has seen it. I am not alone in my opinion. However I do not base my opinion on the opinions of others. Experimental or not, there is a right and a wrong way to make a movie. Once again that was a product of random camera and the efforts of Frank. I think the finished product, if that can be applied to and endless stream of disconnected shots, is more the work of Frank than Jim. He was of traipsing around with Pam while tht was being made.

I think I mentioned that I have not seen, nor is it likely that I will ever see, Ray's production so I cannot judge this effort. I do know that he had the greatest influence on the making of Feast of Friends.

Well, if there was not a difference of opinion there would be no horse racing.

Perhaps it was some product of Ray's that prevented him from being trusted with 16 million tomake the Jim's worship movie.

He will, no doubt, be the director of the upcoming Doors movie that will give the true and accurate story of the Group. Well, I assume that the Group will be reduced to hero worship of Jim.

I wonder what they will do with my character.

After hearing about the uproar I have caused on the "Official" forum, they will probably eliminate the position of Road Manager. The new manager has already relegated me to the level of a rumor monger telling bad stories about nice people who have never said anything about me. Well that part is true. They all talk about each other and ignore my part in the group (Except in the books, that is true and the authors all do give credit where credit is due), or even my existance today.

Only John has ever answered my E-mails.

Take care Stuart. Thank you for your participation.

What is happening with the chat room? That would be fun...

[Stuart]

Thanks for answering my questions vince.....

Here is a Frank Lisciandro Interview Vince, I think you will find it very interesting- I think it was great that jim had a great friend in frank.

http://www.crystal-ship.com/fan_club.php?act=int-fl1

[vince]

Well that is quite an interview from Fran Lisciandro.

Did he say some of what I said - I think so. He and Babe spent time with Jim, remember that Frank was also a product of UCLA, and Jim had Frank edit Highway.

I think I mentioned that we have to be eternally grateful to Frank for taking hundred of photos of Jim and the Doors in studio and performance that would otherwise never have been seen. I did mention I know that Frank is an excellent photographer. He is one of those guys with an eye fir a oicture befire he ever sees it through the lens.

As everyone knows, I can agree with Frnaks assesment of the Sugarman Book and the Stone movie. There is one point on which I do not agree about Sugarman's book. Jerry Hopkins did not write it. Jerry did all the research for it. Sugarman, under the banner of being 'Jim's confidant" (at age 14) is the one who did the damage in that book. I would not say the Mr. Hopkins is entirely blameless but he is not the guy who did the final write and create the idolworshiping myth of Jim.

I do not thin I can say much more about Stone's film than I have. I do not think that what I say can be more eloquent that Frank's candid answer to that question.

I will be honest with all you readers and admit that I did not know how much of Hwd Bowl was from Franl's camera. Ferrara was the top man in that filming and there were 4 camera running for the entire show. As you all know, my place was on stage and I had my hands full with the job of making sure all went well there. I could not keep track of who was filming where unless they come around the rear section of the stage and the amp line.
Of course, Frank was the editor and is might be said that he would favor his shooting because he did that with the overall presentation of the film in mind when he was framing and deciding on position or angle from which he would shoot. Keep in mind, however, that Ferarra was on stage and closest to Jim. The took that spot as the DOP.

I have not seen any of Frank's books, They were released wither when I was not in the States or at some time that I was so disconnected from the Doors that I did not know what was going on. He never favored me with a signed copy which I would appreciate and cherish.

Frank writes his books as a friend of Jim. That is a nice place to write from. Frank had many experiences with Jim that I did not. It is true, and I believe I mentioned it, that Babe was a sort of watchdog for Jim. You know, in a flash of thought, Siddones would not have done half bad to hire Babe as a body guard, on a long term basis. Aside from the choice of Kenny, who did not smoke or drink, there really was no better choice.

Frank is honest about Jim's drinking. He did not need encouragement, He was an alcoholic. there were many times when neither Babe Hill nor Frank was with Jim. Perhaps they shunned the Male Groupies that were tagging after jim for good time charlie - until Jim ran out of money. Then they all went home and left Jim to fend for himself.

Good Guy - Bad Guy. In this whoe story, there are neither. There are people who worked together, some even played together, who knew each other, some even helped on another. We all made good and bad decisions. I repeat what I said before, Jim was not a Bad guy. He was troubled and had a drug and drinking problem. This led to behavior that destroyed himself and the group.

I woudl again disagree with Frank on another point. The great leader of the Doors. If it were not for Ray, Jim would never have been a rock star, there would never have been a Doors. It is true that Ray brought everyone together. It is true that Ray did a lot of the arranging of the music. It is true that Jim wrote most of the lyrics that were used by the group in live performances and in recordings. Hoever, there were 4 guys in that Group and as such, no one was more or less important than any other. As far as creativity is concerned - they individually and collectively contributed to the success, or failure, of any individual piece of music.

About Jim's poetry and his being one of the greats of the 20th centurey - Whatever happened to Robert Frost. And there are others who a much more widely read worldwide than Jim ever though of being. No i vehemently disagree with Jim's close friend Frank, that Jim was an intellectual Genius who write some of the best poetry of the 20th century. Far from it.

Because I stated, more than once, that Jim was a tortured and lonely guy does not make Jim a bad guy. He was likable and, as Franks said, sometimes funny. He was easy to tlak to and he and I had many interesting conversations in the early hours of the day. Do I deny his creativity - No I do not and I have stated more than once his greatest creative period was prior to is deep involvement in drugs. That is when he wrote the incredible mystical lyrics that we know as The End, Music is over, and many other of the pieces we heard on the first 3 albums.

It was not until the propaganda about his being a great peot began to thrive that he started to write every strange though down, late to become his books of poetry.

Was Jim creative? Of course he was. Not all he did was bad. the problem we have is that the spectacular events of New Haven, Amsterdam, Miami and New Orleans overshadow the rest of his good side. He is remember ,as Stone wanted to portray, a wild, crazed unpredictable person. That is not true. Believe me, when Jim wanted to do a good show, it was a performance like no other group could put on. That is why I spent my time with the Doors and not other groups. The Doors had the way and the word. No one could come close. Most of that was a result of Jim's early creative period.

Frank was a shocked and grief stricken as all of us. We all knew something had happened that never should have. We all knew that something should have been done to prevent it. Jim had as many years of performance in him as Mik Jagger. Jim, unlike Mik, chose a path of self destruction. That is the tragedy.

Frank told a very sad truth. I had mentioned it on a couple of posting. Jim Chose to drink. It was not something that was forced on him. He chose to use light, medium and heavy drugs. It was not forced on him. Jim chose to wreck many performances. He was not told to.

The big problem was the Frank, who according to Frank (I am not being funny here) was a better friend to Jim than Ray, went with Jim to go drinking because he was a friend. He took care of him when Jim was not able to help himself.

What Frank did not do was to try to prevent Jim from getting into that state. He did make it possible for Jim to get into that situation. Anyone familiar with the process and progress of alcoholism will tell you that when you help a drinker, you are just helping him to continue his downward spiral. You are making it possible for him to keep on goin along that path.

There Frank failed his friend and - in some small way, the Doors as a whole. Did Frank try, Only Franck knows. I did, in my [ersuasive manner. He ignored my suggestions. Bil did, with sarcasm and harsh words. He was met with defiance. I cannot say whether John, Ray or Robby did or did not. They know and that is far as I can go. Perhaps they did after Isle of Wright, but it was too little and too late. New Orleans is proof of that.

Read Franks interview. There is some hero worship. But I think there is also a lot of insight, honesty and pain as well. If Franks book is anywhere as good as his interview I should invest in a copy. That is for sure.

[Stuart]

". No i vehemently disagree with Jim's close friend Frank, that Jim was an intellectual Genius who write some of the best poetry of the 20th century. Far from it. "

Vince, I have to say i passionately and completley disagree with that above 100%

A very very creative man and an Intellectual Genius who wrote some stunning poetical works (i cite PARIS JOURNAL from the book"The American Night" )

He Inspired me to write poetry and i cant thank him enough and also got me to check out people such as nietzsche,artuad,blake etc.


Thanks For Responding.