Vince-
Have you ever given any thought as to how you would have handled the situation in Paris?
Jim's death
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vince
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The French Connection
for me to speculate is just that. As you are aware, the information provided to Bill Siddons before and after his arrival in Paris was poor at best.
We found out about it well after the incident and after much of the final preparations had been made by Pan and those who took over in her stead.
I think Bill did what he cold under the circumstances. That is a situation that we could all think about but the reality of it all was that by the time anyone, including me, was able to get to the scene, nothing was going to be changed.
I find many "Holes" in the story by Alan. These are logical holes. One thing. I think I would have demanded an autopsey to put to rest all speculation. Whether the police wanted it or not was not the point. The real issue was answering the question of what was the real cause of Jim's death and why. One did not need police permission to demand an autopsy
The lack of an autopsy is, to me, a clear indication of a cover up of some sort especially in view of the undefined situation with the Paris Police in the Alan account. I can't detail that in this message. Read it for yourself.. See what is NOT said, rather than that which Is.
Why all the police delay. Why keep a body in a room for two or 3 days preserved only by dry ices? Why not removal to a morgue. What was the necessity of leaving a rotting body sitting in a tub. They had photos and eyewitness accounts of the scene. What was all this nonsense? There is no logic there. Why no Embassy people checking on a questionable death. Why not more communication with Jim's parents or brother? Why all the secrecy. "Don't tell anyone it is Jim Morrison.... why not? Was his death and burial a permanent secret? Impossible.
This hysterical woman was NOT his wife. She was only his beneficiary. I would certainly have contacted the Father, or Andrew if no one else. I would have pushed a lot harder for much more information.
I think Bill felt helpless in the face of the avalanch that had been set in motion by Pam, Alan and others in direct control. Were I bill, I would have had a long chat with the police investigators to determine the reasoning behind their activities and failure to better protect the body. Was Jim even embalmed? If not these is little left in that coffin.
Once again, we are, in this time, speculating and second guessing. Bill was there, We were not. Bill did what he though right under the circumstances. I suggest that I would have pushed a lot harder and much further to get the final answer for Jim's death. The so called "Sacndle" of Hendrix and other might well have been avoided if the truth was revealed immediately. The secrecy has NOT dispelled the question of drug involvement and Alan's interview gives much greater evidence that drugs likely were involved.
Jim is dead He died sitting in a bathtub and had been under a doctors care. That is the only certainty in that whole affair. I would have pushed a lot further. Bill did not and only he can tell why.
That is my 2 cents worth
We found out about it well after the incident and after much of the final preparations had been made by Pan and those who took over in her stead.
I think Bill did what he cold under the circumstances. That is a situation that we could all think about but the reality of it all was that by the time anyone, including me, was able to get to the scene, nothing was going to be changed.
I find many "Holes" in the story by Alan. These are logical holes. One thing. I think I would have demanded an autopsey to put to rest all speculation. Whether the police wanted it or not was not the point. The real issue was answering the question of what was the real cause of Jim's death and why. One did not need police permission to demand an autopsy
The lack of an autopsy is, to me, a clear indication of a cover up of some sort especially in view of the undefined situation with the Paris Police in the Alan account. I can't detail that in this message. Read it for yourself.. See what is NOT said, rather than that which Is.
Why all the police delay. Why keep a body in a room for two or 3 days preserved only by dry ices? Why not removal to a morgue. What was the necessity of leaving a rotting body sitting in a tub. They had photos and eyewitness accounts of the scene. What was all this nonsense? There is no logic there. Why no Embassy people checking on a questionable death. Why not more communication with Jim's parents or brother? Why all the secrecy. "Don't tell anyone it is Jim Morrison.... why not? Was his death and burial a permanent secret? Impossible.
This hysterical woman was NOT his wife. She was only his beneficiary. I would certainly have contacted the Father, or Andrew if no one else. I would have pushed a lot harder for much more information.
I think Bill felt helpless in the face of the avalanch that had been set in motion by Pam, Alan and others in direct control. Were I bill, I would have had a long chat with the police investigators to determine the reasoning behind their activities and failure to better protect the body. Was Jim even embalmed? If not these is little left in that coffin.
Once again, we are, in this time, speculating and second guessing. Bill was there, We were not. Bill did what he though right under the circumstances. I suggest that I would have pushed a lot harder and much further to get the final answer for Jim's death. The so called "Sacndle" of Hendrix and other might well have been avoided if the truth was revealed immediately. The secrecy has NOT dispelled the question of drug involvement and Alan's interview gives much greater evidence that drugs likely were involved.
Jim is dead He died sitting in a bathtub and had been under a doctors care. That is the only certainty in that whole affair. I would have pushed a lot further. Bill did not and only he can tell why.
That is my 2 cents worth
Vince
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cutis
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very informative answer, Vince. I think Pam knew exactly how Jim died and she played a part in it. I believe Jim most definitely died from taking a certain drug (which drug??) and Pam most likely made that drug available to him. Stories abound that Jim mistakenly snorted heroine when he thought it was cocaine and the heroine triggered a heart attack. It's only speculation but as good as any since we don't know what caused Jim's heart attack. But Pam knew. She died from her heroine addiction about three years later. She knew what killed Jim? I don't doubt that for an instant. I wonder if Agnes or that French Count that Pam had been seeing had any knowledge of what exactly killed Jim. Did Pam tell the truth to either of those individuals? It's certainly possible. But no one has since spoken on the level and told their version of the truth.
I agree with you that Bill Siddons should have demanded an autopsy. There's no reason why he couldn't have. I think that says something about his relationship with Jim. Is that good or bad?? I'm not sure. But you've brought out some previously unknown "relationship issues" between Siddons and Jim that I never thought about before. You've said in previous postings that Siddons had a certain "lack of respect" for Jim. It makes me wonder how much Siddons really cared about Jim and in particular, his welfare. Granted, Jim was incorrigible when it came to his destructive behavior. But still, I detect a real lack of "care" on the part of Siddons when it came to Jim. Of course I don't know enough about Siddons and can't pass judgement on him. But I sure have questions about his behavior towards Jim and how much he really cared about him.
The fact that no autopsy was conducted or insisted upon, the fact that not one family member of Jim's even bothered to fly out to Paris to see their son, the fact that Ray, Robby or John did not even think of flying out to Paris to see Jim for themselves!....it's all very strange to me and rather sad.
I agree with you that Bill Siddons should have demanded an autopsy. There's no reason why he couldn't have. I think that says something about his relationship with Jim. Is that good or bad?? I'm not sure. But you've brought out some previously unknown "relationship issues" between Siddons and Jim that I never thought about before. You've said in previous postings that Siddons had a certain "lack of respect" for Jim. It makes me wonder how much Siddons really cared about Jim and in particular, his welfare. Granted, Jim was incorrigible when it came to his destructive behavior. But still, I detect a real lack of "care" on the part of Siddons when it came to Jim. Of course I don't know enough about Siddons and can't pass judgement on him. But I sure have questions about his behavior towards Jim and how much he really cared about him.
The fact that no autopsy was conducted or insisted upon, the fact that not one family member of Jim's even bothered to fly out to Paris to see their son, the fact that Ray, Robby or John did not even think of flying out to Paris to see Jim for themselves!....it's all very strange to me and rather sad.
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vince
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They mystery of ingestion
Heroine would not have caused the heart attack as likely coke might have (I think). Heroine was a depressant where coke is an "Excitable" effect.
That Bill had little respect for Jim was based an a couple of family problems that Bill experienced. Please don't ask and spare me the refusal to answer.
Bill LIKED Jim - We all did. No one liked Jim's erratic and destructive behavior. But there is a difference between liking a person and having respect from them. Bills LOSS of respect followed the downward spiral of Jim's behavior. Remember he was a teen=ager when he first went with Rich Linnell to see the Doors perform. He had a couple of years of working with the group to experience just how erratic Jim could be. I think New Haven was what might have broken Bill's spirit - he was NOT the manager when that happened. There had already been the refusal to get on a plane, the Whiskey NO Show as a result of the Acid Drop, the flip over the rail in Denver Holiday Inn. Bill had seen some bad antics long before I came.
Once Bill was wearing the Managers hat he should have toned things down a bit. But he was under great pressure. His own pride, His suddenly inflated ego and invinceability, the sniping by other older and more prominent managers who desperately wanted the Doors, the boys themselved and, of course the possibility of trouble every time Jim went on stage. For Bill, this was stressful. One cannot blame him.
As for what happened in Paris. Bill came late to the scene thanks to the secrecy - the shroud of silence put up by Alan and others more in control than Pam. When Bill arrived the funeral was in progress. He arrived just hours before they dropped Jim in the ground.
Remember that we did not know, factually, that Jim had died. This was all a result of a phone call to Bill from England asking Bill to define the truth of Rumor. He was as ignorant of the facts as anyone else. He had no time to notify any member of the Morrison family though I think I would have requested Kathy to make the call and let the Family know that there was a rumor and let them decide what to do.
Bill failed in not persueing the situation. He did not get all the police reports, get a translator to talk to the investigation officers. Who knows whether he spoke to Alan and any of the others who wre hiding in every rat hole they could find, or not. The problem was - when Bill walked back to the airport exit door, he did not have the entire story and related documents.
Could he have forced an autopsy - NO, he could not. Only Jim's parents, Max Fink, possibly Abe Summers could have done that. Legally, Pam was not his wife and had no authority at all. There is no way Pam could have legally blocked an autopsy if the Morrison family requested it. If the Police investigator had required it, it would have been done without delay.
It may have been Alan and the influence of the Count that put the lid on the truth.
I stated, before all the Alan thing was posted, that I was convinced by earlier bits of information, that drugs were involved in spite of the Blood Clot story. That might have been for the press, but reason dictates a second opinion.
One might also question the publication of Alans sudden revelation of the Full Story. Publicity seeking??? - Why wait for nearly 40 years if the truth was so harmless and everyone involved was the Good Guys.
Why wait for 3 days to take a rotting corpse from a bath tub in an open apartment. What was the purpose in leaving that body there? What importance did the location and position of the body have when there may have been considerations of drugs or unnatural causes. Why was everyone so afraid of an autopsy? If everyone was so innocent, what was all the hiding about. Because Pam was a user and might have been arrested - as she should have been - and deported. There were suspicions that Pam contributed to this affair. Why then, was everyone protecting her instead of getting the truth out about the corcumstances. Was everyone involved so utterly stupid, so ignorant of history that they thought that sometime someone would not tell the inside story??
You wonder how much Alan might have been paid by the National Inquirer - TRUTH REVEALED.... I can see the banner headlines.
How Naive.
2:42 and counting
That Bill had little respect for Jim was based an a couple of family problems that Bill experienced. Please don't ask and spare me the refusal to answer.
Bill LIKED Jim - We all did. No one liked Jim's erratic and destructive behavior. But there is a difference between liking a person and having respect from them. Bills LOSS of respect followed the downward spiral of Jim's behavior. Remember he was a teen=ager when he first went with Rich Linnell to see the Doors perform. He had a couple of years of working with the group to experience just how erratic Jim could be. I think New Haven was what might have broken Bill's spirit - he was NOT the manager when that happened. There had already been the refusal to get on a plane, the Whiskey NO Show as a result of the Acid Drop, the flip over the rail in Denver Holiday Inn. Bill had seen some bad antics long before I came.
Once Bill was wearing the Managers hat he should have toned things down a bit. But he was under great pressure. His own pride, His suddenly inflated ego and invinceability, the sniping by other older and more prominent managers who desperately wanted the Doors, the boys themselved and, of course the possibility of trouble every time Jim went on stage. For Bill, this was stressful. One cannot blame him.
As for what happened in Paris. Bill came late to the scene thanks to the secrecy - the shroud of silence put up by Alan and others more in control than Pam. When Bill arrived the funeral was in progress. He arrived just hours before they dropped Jim in the ground.
Remember that we did not know, factually, that Jim had died. This was all a result of a phone call to Bill from England asking Bill to define the truth of Rumor. He was as ignorant of the facts as anyone else. He had no time to notify any member of the Morrison family though I think I would have requested Kathy to make the call and let the Family know that there was a rumor and let them decide what to do.
Bill failed in not persueing the situation. He did not get all the police reports, get a translator to talk to the investigation officers. Who knows whether he spoke to Alan and any of the others who wre hiding in every rat hole they could find, or not. The problem was - when Bill walked back to the airport exit door, he did not have the entire story and related documents.
Could he have forced an autopsy - NO, he could not. Only Jim's parents, Max Fink, possibly Abe Summers could have done that. Legally, Pam was not his wife and had no authority at all. There is no way Pam could have legally blocked an autopsy if the Morrison family requested it. If the Police investigator had required it, it would have been done without delay.
It may have been Alan and the influence of the Count that put the lid on the truth.
I stated, before all the Alan thing was posted, that I was convinced by earlier bits of information, that drugs were involved in spite of the Blood Clot story. That might have been for the press, but reason dictates a second opinion.
One might also question the publication of Alans sudden revelation of the Full Story. Publicity seeking??? - Why wait for nearly 40 years if the truth was so harmless and everyone involved was the Good Guys.
Why wait for 3 days to take a rotting corpse from a bath tub in an open apartment. What was the purpose in leaving that body there? What importance did the location and position of the body have when there may have been considerations of drugs or unnatural causes. Why was everyone so afraid of an autopsy? If everyone was so innocent, what was all the hiding about. Because Pam was a user and might have been arrested - as she should have been - and deported. There were suspicions that Pam contributed to this affair. Why then, was everyone protecting her instead of getting the truth out about the corcumstances. Was everyone involved so utterly stupid, so ignorant of history that they thought that sometime someone would not tell the inside story??
You wonder how much Alan might have been paid by the National Inquirer - TRUTH REVEALED.... I can see the banner headlines.
How Naive.
2:42 and counting
Vince
Road Manager
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rokritr
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For what it's worth, Frank Lisciandro had a theory that I found interesting, although the conspiracy theorists don't like it, because it's too boring perhaps:
"I believe that Jim died of complications from alcohol, because we do know that he was on some prescription medication for asthmatic respiratory problems, and that medication mixed with alcohol can cause death.
"Any of Jim's doctors in the States would not have given him this medication--because they knew he was an alcoholic. But in France, we do know for a fact that Jim was taking this medication, and the combination of the two could very well have killed him."
As for Siddons, he said this about the Jim-may-be-alive bs:
"I was in the apartment and Jim was in the bedroom in a casket. It was sealed, and I remember the craftsmanship....I lived through it with Pam and I saw her pain was real. I never believed in her ability to conspire in something like that; she wasn't that good of an actress.
"And when I called the office to say that I buried Jim, they asked, 'Did you see the body?' And I said, "no, why would I?' And they couldn't believe that I had been that stupid, not to ask to see the body. But it honestly never occurred to me to stand there and say, 'Let's open up this casket so I can verify that he's dead.' Bullshit. Pam was Jim's woman for as long as I'd known the guy, and if she says, he's dead; he's dead. And by that point it was too late, I had thrown the dirt on his casket.
"I buried the man, so those 'Jim may be alive' rumors never held any water with me. Those were rumors started by people out to make a buck--like Danny Sugerman. And to Ray and Danny, and their 'Jim may still be alive' crap, go ahead and play your game, but to me it's a silly game."
"I believe that Jim died of complications from alcohol, because we do know that he was on some prescription medication for asthmatic respiratory problems, and that medication mixed with alcohol can cause death.
"Any of Jim's doctors in the States would not have given him this medication--because they knew he was an alcoholic. But in France, we do know for a fact that Jim was taking this medication, and the combination of the two could very well have killed him."
As for Siddons, he said this about the Jim-may-be-alive bs:
"I was in the apartment and Jim was in the bedroom in a casket. It was sealed, and I remember the craftsmanship....I lived through it with Pam and I saw her pain was real. I never believed in her ability to conspire in something like that; she wasn't that good of an actress.
"And when I called the office to say that I buried Jim, they asked, 'Did you see the body?' And I said, "no, why would I?' And they couldn't believe that I had been that stupid, not to ask to see the body. But it honestly never occurred to me to stand there and say, 'Let's open up this casket so I can verify that he's dead.' Bullshit. Pam was Jim's woman for as long as I'd known the guy, and if she says, he's dead; he's dead. And by that point it was too late, I had thrown the dirt on his casket.
"I buried the man, so those 'Jim may be alive' rumors never held any water with me. Those were rumors started by people out to make a buck--like Danny Sugerman. And to Ray and Danny, and their 'Jim may still be alive' crap, go ahead and play your game, but to me it's a silly game."
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Estella
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cutis wrote:very informative answer, Vince. I think Pam knew exactly how Jim died and she played a part in it. I believe Jim most definitely died from taking a certain drug (which drug??) and Pam most likely made that drug available to him. Stories abound that Jim mistakenly snorted heroine when he thought it was cocaine and the heroine triggered a heart attack. It's only speculation but as good as any since we don't know what caused Jim's heart attack. But Pam knew. She died from her heroine addiction about three years later. She knew what killed Jim? I don't doubt that for an instant. I wonder if Agnes or that French Count that Pam had been seeing had any knowledge of what exactly killed Jim. Did Pam tell the truth to either of those individuals? It's certainly possible. But no one has since spoken on the level and told their version of the truth.
Hi Vince, Cutis & rokritr!
Last year I happened to read Marianne Faithfull biography, entitled just Faithfull.
During Jim's last days, Faithfull had a love-drug relationship with Count de Breteuil and was in Paris with him.
This is the short account she gives of the sad night Jim passed away. I thought it might interest you.
Bye
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We were staying at L'Hotel when [Breteuil] got a call from Pamela Morrison and had to leave very suddenly.
'Jean I want to go with you," I told him. "I want to meet Jim Morrison.'
'You can't. I'll be back in a couple of hours.'
'Please, Jean, please?'
'Not now. Je t'explique later, okay?'
He slammed out of the room.
He came back in the early hours of the morning in an agitated state and woke me up. I was very fucked up on Tuinals. I wasn't doing smack at the time but I was taking a lot of downs. Then, for no apparent reason, he beat me up. [...] After the beating I lit a cigarette and asked him: 'So, did you have a good time over there? Aren't you going to tell me why you're in such a agood mood?'
'Get packed.'
'Why? Where are we going?'
'Morocco.'
'Very funny. We just got here.'
'I want you to meet my mother. Hurry up!'
'Uh-oh...What happened over there?'
'Shut up!'
'Oh, shit!'
'Yeah. It's fucked.'
He was scared for his life; Jim Morrison had OD'd and Jean had provided the smack that killed him. Now he was a small-time heroin dealer in big trouble. Jean saw himself as the dealer to the stars. Had he lived, he might have turned into a human being, but he was so young, he didn't know. Nobody knew what the price was going to be.
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secrethostofthetownship
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I believe that Jim died a drug-related death.
And when Bill said to Ray "well,we buried Jim" & Ray asks "well,how did he look?".What's that about?How does one answer a question like that?
What's Bill to say? "Apparently Pam said he died in the bathtub.He did not fall-out of a sixth-floor window or get run-over by a bus.So,having not seen the body,i can only assume Ray Jim did not look too bad."
I am sure a tremendous loss for Ray and the guys.But,at least i notice w/ Ray even still now,in radio and tv interviews he still seems to harbour some deep disdain for Siddons over this whole situation.Okay,"disdain" seems like a pretty harsh word to use,but,still quite upset.
And when Bill said to Ray "well,we buried Jim" & Ray asks "well,how did he look?".What's that about?How does one answer a question like that?
What's Bill to say? "Apparently Pam said he died in the bathtub.He did not fall-out of a sixth-floor window or get run-over by a bus.So,having not seen the body,i can only assume Ray Jim did not look too bad."
I am sure a tremendous loss for Ray and the guys.But,at least i notice w/ Ray even still now,in radio and tv interviews he still seems to harbour some deep disdain for Siddons over this whole situation.Okay,"disdain" seems like a pretty harsh word to use,but,still quite upset.
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vince
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Speculation on dieing
This is a double return message but I want to save time
Frank Lisciandro's "Theory" basically avoids admitting the Jim was involved in Heroine and cocain. Remember that Jim was Frank's friend and I think that Frank feels at least a small obligation to keep Jim's skirts clean.
It is also a point of fact that this "Theory" has been proposed by other peo;e - Alan among them - possibly to avoid all this investigation by the Paris Police. In this particularly sordid situation I think they acted like a bunch of amateurs. There may even have been a payoff by one of the more affluent members of this dance to avoid entanglement as a result of the connection with Pam.
There is the story about the girl who is connected to a small time dealers. Lets do a readers digest.
He gets a call, leaves, comes back, beats the girl up who then calmly lights a cigarette and has a friendly chat with the guy who has just pounced on her.
Really - Let me ask any of the Ladies in the forum - What would you do after receiving a beating from some guy?
I do not think that answer would be that you promptly lit a ciggie and sat chatting about travel plans.
SIDDONS COMMENTS - Horray for Bill. He has the spine to stand up and admit that he did lapse in one detail. BUT - he also made clear that by the time he got there the burial was a done deal.
Why didn't he ask to see inside - He probably, in his mind, wanted to very much. I have no doubt of Bill's good intentions. He was likely frustrated by the fact that he was facing removal of the coffin and the effort to open it, delaying the ensuing party, would have caused a lot of trouble.
Regards his comments to Ray - I think they are valid. How would a body look after being burned by dry ice and sitting in a hot apartment for 3 days. Stick would have been one description. When the pody dies the waste materials contained automatically evacuate and jim would havebeen sitting in that as long as there ws water in the tub. After the water was drained the solid particals that were floating would have clung to his skin. That would have smelled nice.
Then we think of what Jim would have looked like after sitting for many hours in a tub of water - "Prune" would not quite cover it because it would be more like a prune dipped in Feces and basted in urine.
That is the real side of Jim's Oh-So-Sweet condition. the stench - not smell- would have been horrible after 3 hot Paris days of that. All the process of popping Jim in a box was evidently carried out in that apartment. No embalming, to washing to nothing but a mass of putrifying flesh almost to the point where the skin might just have slid off if any serious pressure was put on it.
Alan does not recount in his story the condition of Jim when he was ordered to lift him out of the tub by the Inspector.
Throughout every story this is a nice sweet, clean, peaceful death scene the guest of honor involved lay in peaceful repose and visitors and what have you floated in or out of the apartment at will.
Imagine Pan and Alan being ordered to stay in the apartment, without food or other accommodations while the investigation went on. the fact that, according to Alan, they did not, instead going to the police station, shows about ho much control the cops had over that possible crime scene.
Ray & "Disdain" I think it unfortunate that there are people who are proposing in a very sly, very discrete manner that these might just be maybe, if the sun doesn't rise on Tuedsay June 31, jim might be alive. After all, No one looked inside the coffin.
If Jim is not dead, if Jim is walking around somehwre. What does he do for a living. Where does his living expenses come from? Why isn't he writing poetry. And the best question of all - If Jim is alive - Who in hell was sitting in that tub.
Imagine that there is speculation that Jim is alive when no one looked inside the coffin. People forget that he was on view by the police, the "Cise Man' and anyone else who wandered in. So what in hell is the relevance of not peeking inside the coffin. If he was not in there - what was and what did they do with the body?
All those who are so unutterly stupid enough to believe - to imagine that Morrison is not dead have been taking way to much in the way of mind altering - No Mind destructive drugs.
There is NO Reason for Ray to question the burial of Jim. Further we notice that Ray has always had a fascination with Jim's appearance - describing the square jaw, the comparison with dionisys and all - that is well known, based on many interviews with Ray where he endlessly carries on about Jims physical attributes.
I have no arguement with Ray - it is his right to worship Jim as he feels is right. We cannto criticize or fault him for this. It is, I suppose, his way of soothing his feelings about what was not done to prevent Jim for winding up dead in a tub. It is almost a natural thing for ray to ask what Jim looked like. He is fascinated with Jim's appearance. You know what is funny
No photos of Jim in the tub. Did the police take picture - any competant police investigator would have. Was there mention of the cops taking photos. while writing, I don't remember but I think so. Now all you traders of reels, posters and photos.... Ho Ho here is the greatest coup of all. People have posted copied of arrest warrants, arrest photos, court documents, the will - Where are the photos of Jim in the TUB - WHERE????
Boy, have I sparked controversy on this one....
That is why I am here, Peeps. Myth buster.
Personally the story quoted by Estella is fiction. Rockriter is picking up on a comment by Mr. L, that merely follows the party line.
You know something - For all the 4 years I knew Jim, worked with him I never so him take any kind of medication for asthma - and this asthma business never came to light except in Paris. He drank all over the USA. The SUDDEN claim is that Nooo - they would not have given Jim this same drug in the States, they are smarter than Paris doctors who would never have thought of telling Jim that he could not use that medication and alcohol. Because it is France, doctors have no knowledge that drinK and that drug do not go well together...
Or they didn't tell Jim Morrison that he could not take this drug and drink because they did not know he was Jim Morrison.
It is OK for anyone else to drink and drug at the same time - But NOT Jim Morrison.
I see. and I suppose that 1 + 1 = 11
REALLY???
Disdain for Siddons. How petty. If anyone has disdain for Mr. Bill Siddons for not looking inside a coffin they really have very little to cause disdain where Bill is concerned.
Leaving a briefcase full of money in the middle of a hotel lobby - that's OK, Giving Bill graham the brush off - No Problem, Making some outrageous public comments about himself and his position... that's cool, man
But if you don't look inside a coffin... Oh woe, calamity, the greatest sin of omission.
Horsefeathers, Wilbur. Cheer up Bill, I am with you on this one.
Frank Lisciandro's "Theory" basically avoids admitting the Jim was involved in Heroine and cocain. Remember that Jim was Frank's friend and I think that Frank feels at least a small obligation to keep Jim's skirts clean.
It is also a point of fact that this "Theory" has been proposed by other peo;e - Alan among them - possibly to avoid all this investigation by the Paris Police. In this particularly sordid situation I think they acted like a bunch of amateurs. There may even have been a payoff by one of the more affluent members of this dance to avoid entanglement as a result of the connection with Pam.
There is the story about the girl who is connected to a small time dealers. Lets do a readers digest.
He gets a call, leaves, comes back, beats the girl up who then calmly lights a cigarette and has a friendly chat with the guy who has just pounced on her.
Really - Let me ask any of the Ladies in the forum - What would you do after receiving a beating from some guy?
I do not think that answer would be that you promptly lit a ciggie and sat chatting about travel plans.
SIDDONS COMMENTS - Horray for Bill. He has the spine to stand up and admit that he did lapse in one detail. BUT - he also made clear that by the time he got there the burial was a done deal.
Why didn't he ask to see inside - He probably, in his mind, wanted to very much. I have no doubt of Bill's good intentions. He was likely frustrated by the fact that he was facing removal of the coffin and the effort to open it, delaying the ensuing party, would have caused a lot of trouble.
Regards his comments to Ray - I think they are valid. How would a body look after being burned by dry ice and sitting in a hot apartment for 3 days. Stick would have been one description. When the pody dies the waste materials contained automatically evacuate and jim would havebeen sitting in that as long as there ws water in the tub. After the water was drained the solid particals that were floating would have clung to his skin. That would have smelled nice.
Then we think of what Jim would have looked like after sitting for many hours in a tub of water - "Prune" would not quite cover it because it would be more like a prune dipped in Feces and basted in urine.
That is the real side of Jim's Oh-So-Sweet condition. the stench - not smell- would have been horrible after 3 hot Paris days of that. All the process of popping Jim in a box was evidently carried out in that apartment. No embalming, to washing to nothing but a mass of putrifying flesh almost to the point where the skin might just have slid off if any serious pressure was put on it.
Alan does not recount in his story the condition of Jim when he was ordered to lift him out of the tub by the Inspector.
Throughout every story this is a nice sweet, clean, peaceful death scene the guest of honor involved lay in peaceful repose and visitors and what have you floated in or out of the apartment at will.
Imagine Pan and Alan being ordered to stay in the apartment, without food or other accommodations while the investigation went on. the fact that, according to Alan, they did not, instead going to the police station, shows about ho much control the cops had over that possible crime scene.
Ray & "Disdain" I think it unfortunate that there are people who are proposing in a very sly, very discrete manner that these might just be maybe, if the sun doesn't rise on Tuedsay June 31, jim might be alive. After all, No one looked inside the coffin.
If Jim is not dead, if Jim is walking around somehwre. What does he do for a living. Where does his living expenses come from? Why isn't he writing poetry. And the best question of all - If Jim is alive - Who in hell was sitting in that tub.
Imagine that there is speculation that Jim is alive when no one looked inside the coffin. People forget that he was on view by the police, the "Cise Man' and anyone else who wandered in. So what in hell is the relevance of not peeking inside the coffin. If he was not in there - what was and what did they do with the body?
All those who are so unutterly stupid enough to believe - to imagine that Morrison is not dead have been taking way to much in the way of mind altering - No Mind destructive drugs.
There is NO Reason for Ray to question the burial of Jim. Further we notice that Ray has always had a fascination with Jim's appearance - describing the square jaw, the comparison with dionisys and all - that is well known, based on many interviews with Ray where he endlessly carries on about Jims physical attributes.
I have no arguement with Ray - it is his right to worship Jim as he feels is right. We cannto criticize or fault him for this. It is, I suppose, his way of soothing his feelings about what was not done to prevent Jim for winding up dead in a tub. It is almost a natural thing for ray to ask what Jim looked like. He is fascinated with Jim's appearance. You know what is funny
No photos of Jim in the tub. Did the police take picture - any competant police investigator would have. Was there mention of the cops taking photos. while writing, I don't remember but I think so. Now all you traders of reels, posters and photos.... Ho Ho here is the greatest coup of all. People have posted copied of arrest warrants, arrest photos, court documents, the will - Where are the photos of Jim in the TUB - WHERE????
Boy, have I sparked controversy on this one....
That is why I am here, Peeps. Myth buster.
Personally the story quoted by Estella is fiction. Rockriter is picking up on a comment by Mr. L, that merely follows the party line.
You know something - For all the 4 years I knew Jim, worked with him I never so him take any kind of medication for asthma - and this asthma business never came to light except in Paris. He drank all over the USA. The SUDDEN claim is that Nooo - they would not have given Jim this same drug in the States, they are smarter than Paris doctors who would never have thought of telling Jim that he could not use that medication and alcohol. Because it is France, doctors have no knowledge that drinK and that drug do not go well together...
Or they didn't tell Jim Morrison that he could not take this drug and drink because they did not know he was Jim Morrison.
It is OK for anyone else to drink and drug at the same time - But NOT Jim Morrison.
I see. and I suppose that 1 + 1 = 11
REALLY???
Disdain for Siddons. How petty. If anyone has disdain for Mr. Bill Siddons for not looking inside a coffin they really have very little to cause disdain where Bill is concerned.
Leaving a briefcase full of money in the middle of a hotel lobby - that's OK, Giving Bill graham the brush off - No Problem, Making some outrageous public comments about himself and his position... that's cool, man
But if you don't look inside a coffin... Oh woe, calamity, the greatest sin of omission.
Horsefeathers, Wilbur. Cheer up Bill, I am with you on this one.
Vince
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Estella
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Re: Speculation on dieing
Hi Vince,vince wrote: There is the story about the girl who is connected to a small time dealers. Lets do a readers digest.
He gets a call, leaves, comes back, beats the girl up who then calmly lights a cigarette and has a friendly chat with the guy who has just pounced on her.
Really - Let me ask any of the Ladies in the forum - What would you do after receiving a beating from some guy?
I do not think that answer would be that you promptly lit a ciggie and sat chatting about travel plans.
thanks for answering! Just a quick note:
I'm aware that quoting that out of context, it may sound absurd, but Marianne Faithfull had touched the bottom. After her heyday she even bacame a homeless, living in the streets. She was subjected to anything imaginable and accepted that just to have drugs for free from the Count. She had been beaten by him on a daily basis for quite a long time, but was still there.
Besides, they weren't just talking about a holiday, but planning to escape to Tangier (where the Count's rich and powerful mother lived) because the police would be on their trail quite soon, which they did.
I'm not saying that she's telling the truth about Jim's death, of course! I just wanted to explain that the context is a bit less senseless than it may seem.
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Estella
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Re: Speculation on dieing
I've recently found out he never did.vince wrote:There is NO Reason for Ray to question the burial of Jim.
And that Bill Siddons was a roadie.
This appeared in May issue of Classic Rock Magazine:
[CRM] Jim Morrison's death has always been shrouded in mystery. Do you still have any doubts that he's buried at Pere Lachaise cemetery?
[RM] None. I never did.
[CRM] In your book, you mention the casket being sealed before the band's roadie, Bill Siddons, had a chance to view the body.
[RM] What a mistake that guy made, huh? I mean, the idea that a sealed coffin was buried in Pere Lachaise was obviously going to give flame to an insane rumor that Jim Morrison was still alive. And that's exactly what happened. Of course, wouldn't it be wonderful if he was alive? Wouldn't it be wonderful, if he was in fact out in the Seychelles and had found a little brown-skinned girl and had married her and had a couple of kids and was living the life of a recluse on the beach in the Seychelles? That's my wish for Jim Morrison.
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cutis
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Re: Speculation on dieing
Thanks, Estella for sharing more information. I have to wonder per Vince as where are the photos of Jim sitting in a bathtub??
We have no proof he died in a bathtub. Jim could easily have died in bed right next to Pam. Who the hell started the "Jim in bathtub" myth anyway? Alain? Pam?
Pam was in some way responsible for Jim's death. Jim was still responsible for injesting whatever drug he took that triggered his heart attack. But Pam made the drug available and Jim for whatever reason took it.
I wonder if the "Count" paid off the Paris police to hold off any investigation? Or for that matter why the doctor who wrote on Jim's death certificate that he died of a "heart attack." If the doctor saw no signs of drug use on Jim's body, (no needle marks, etc...) then it's probable that Jim snorted the stuff (heroine). Did the Count pay off the French doctor?
Lots of unanswered questions, Vince. We really don't know at all what happened to Jim in those final minutes or hours of his life. And we don't know who ultimately is culpable. But I stand by (since I can) that Pam should have been implicated in the death of Jim. She died three years later from a heroine overdose. Strange how I don't feel much remorse over Pam's passing.
We have no proof he died in a bathtub. Jim could easily have died in bed right next to Pam. Who the hell started the "Jim in bathtub" myth anyway? Alain? Pam?
Pam was in some way responsible for Jim's death. Jim was still responsible for injesting whatever drug he took that triggered his heart attack. But Pam made the drug available and Jim for whatever reason took it.
I wonder if the "Count" paid off the Paris police to hold off any investigation? Or for that matter why the doctor who wrote on Jim's death certificate that he died of a "heart attack." If the doctor saw no signs of drug use on Jim's body, (no needle marks, etc...) then it's probable that Jim snorted the stuff (heroine). Did the Count pay off the French doctor?
Lots of unanswered questions, Vince. We really don't know at all what happened to Jim in those final minutes or hours of his life. And we don't know who ultimately is culpable. But I stand by (since I can) that Pam should have been implicated in the death of Jim. She died three years later from a heroine overdose. Strange how I don't feel much remorse over Pam's passing.
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vince
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Jim's death reviewed
In regards to the story ofthe Count and his lady - I understand thatthere are some people who will go to any length to satisfy the habit. In fact, there are others (the COunt) who will foster this to obtain a slave so to speak.
We must admit that it is a strange story.
In the suggestion by Ray that Bill made a mistakenot opening the coffin (or casket, which - they are not the same) I say that is nonesense - an effort to raise speculation about the fact of Jim's death. Perpetuating the myth sells books.
If Jim's body was NOT in the coffin, whose body was it or, conversely, what was done with Jim's body.
Ithink, andstated,that Ithink the asthma storyis pure invention. It is a cover story for a drug OD.
Pam was not a sniffer - she liked to mainlinethatstuff. Jim was one to advocate breakingon through. With Pam being supplied on a regularbases, therewas an available supply in the room to which Jim had full access.
Notice in the recounting of the stoay aby Alan, there was so much flurryabout hiding things and such. The police found nothing in the apartment yet were suspicious. Itisinteresting that thereis one description of Jim as bloated and short ofbreath. Suddenly, when he dieshehas slimmed down - There is only one diet that an do that for you. It is definitely not recommended. Few drug users in that range are fat.
If the count paid off suspicious police and the doctor, it was in his personal interest.
Have you traveled? Have you stayed in a foreign hotel? Did you ever stay in such a placewithout showing your passport? Yet we are told that, with all the records that they sold in France, the promo that went ahead ofthe cancelled 1970 tour and so on, that Jim was so distorted in his appearance that NO ONE recognized him.
With al the erratic, loud, destructive behavior that Jim Morrison, or Morrison, James (How stupid do people think Euro's are), would not be recognized.
Horse feathers, Wilbur!!
His death was a result of drugs. Thebath tub thing is interested. But had he died anywhere else, the exavuation of his body would have left stains and debris. The smell generatedin the Paris heat would have been like the Tell Tale Heart.
I'll go with the bathtub theory. It is as good as any better than the though that Jim died elsewhere and was hauled into the tub which was then filled with water to provide a "Convenient story" that Pam was not right beside him when his heart stopped. But then as I said before, there would have been considerable mess to clean up.
Outside of a hospital, death is a dirty, messy affair, regardless of how "Peacefully" it sneaks up on one. there is support for the tub story, too many people repeat it.
Of course - the CSI and other investigators consider that the more consistant the story between "Witnesses" the more chance there is of something not being right.
Let's face it. This issuewill notbe resolved.I think ihave put my theories on line. Others have expressed theirs. The members of the Inner Circle have made, and will re-inforce - their versions. There isinformation thathas not come to light and will not unless someone get inside the Paris Policefiles - assuming they exist 40 years later.
I did suggest that we put this morbid topic to rest and go on with it. We are not now, nor ever, as far as I can see, going to get the real truth of any of it. I doubt that the story finally told be Alan is true either, After all, Pan was dead, others had died or disappeared who is to refute anything he said? We have to accept that the most accurate eye-witness version we have is from Alan and he had 30 years or so to carefull groom that story to be without loopholes - But there are, to my mind still too many.
Let's let it go. What is really important is that Jim is not here, among us today, to perform, write "Poetry" or drive a truck. Two of the 3 living Doors have reformed and are performing. The Third guy is on the outside now, as a result of taking offense to a passage in Ray's book, which I personally do not think Ray meant as an offense to John, only perhaps an exaggeration of John's emotions.
Ray and Robbie were, on the one hand sued by John and the Cursons and in turn counter sued. What a wonderful state of affairs this is. "How could things ever have come this far"
The Doors as a sound and song is long gone, the Doors as a group of people has been shattered and the Doors as a performing entity will never sound that same.
The Doors are dead - Long Live the Doors!!!
We must admit that it is a strange story.
In the suggestion by Ray that Bill made a mistakenot opening the coffin (or casket, which - they are not the same) I say that is nonesense - an effort to raise speculation about the fact of Jim's death. Perpetuating the myth sells books.
If Jim's body was NOT in the coffin, whose body was it or, conversely, what was done with Jim's body.
Ithink, andstated,that Ithink the asthma storyis pure invention. It is a cover story for a drug OD.
Pam was not a sniffer - she liked to mainlinethatstuff. Jim was one to advocate breakingon through. With Pam being supplied on a regularbases, therewas an available supply in the room to which Jim had full access.
Notice in the recounting of the stoay aby Alan, there was so much flurryabout hiding things and such. The police found nothing in the apartment yet were suspicious. Itisinteresting that thereis one description of Jim as bloated and short ofbreath. Suddenly, when he dieshehas slimmed down - There is only one diet that an do that for you. It is definitely not recommended. Few drug users in that range are fat.
If the count paid off suspicious police and the doctor, it was in his personal interest.
Have you traveled? Have you stayed in a foreign hotel? Did you ever stay in such a placewithout showing your passport? Yet we are told that, with all the records that they sold in France, the promo that went ahead ofthe cancelled 1970 tour and so on, that Jim was so distorted in his appearance that NO ONE recognized him.
With al the erratic, loud, destructive behavior that Jim Morrison, or Morrison, James (How stupid do people think Euro's are), would not be recognized.
Horse feathers, Wilbur!!
His death was a result of drugs. Thebath tub thing is interested. But had he died anywhere else, the exavuation of his body would have left stains and debris. The smell generatedin the Paris heat would have been like the Tell Tale Heart.
I'll go with the bathtub theory. It is as good as any better than the though that Jim died elsewhere and was hauled into the tub which was then filled with water to provide a "Convenient story" that Pam was not right beside him when his heart stopped. But then as I said before, there would have been considerable mess to clean up.
Outside of a hospital, death is a dirty, messy affair, regardless of how "Peacefully" it sneaks up on one. there is support for the tub story, too many people repeat it.
Of course - the CSI and other investigators consider that the more consistant the story between "Witnesses" the more chance there is of something not being right.
Let's face it. This issuewill notbe resolved.I think ihave put my theories on line. Others have expressed theirs. The members of the Inner Circle have made, and will re-inforce - their versions. There isinformation thathas not come to light and will not unless someone get inside the Paris Policefiles - assuming they exist 40 years later.
I did suggest that we put this morbid topic to rest and go on with it. We are not now, nor ever, as far as I can see, going to get the real truth of any of it. I doubt that the story finally told be Alan is true either, After all, Pan was dead, others had died or disappeared who is to refute anything he said? We have to accept that the most accurate eye-witness version we have is from Alan and he had 30 years or so to carefull groom that story to be without loopholes - But there are, to my mind still too many.
Let's let it go. What is really important is that Jim is not here, among us today, to perform, write "Poetry" or drive a truck. Two of the 3 living Doors have reformed and are performing. The Third guy is on the outside now, as a result of taking offense to a passage in Ray's book, which I personally do not think Ray meant as an offense to John, only perhaps an exaggeration of John's emotions.
Ray and Robbie were, on the one hand sued by John and the Cursons and in turn counter sued. What a wonderful state of affairs this is. "How could things ever have come this far"
The Doors as a sound and song is long gone, the Doors as a group of people has been shattered and the Doors as a performing entity will never sound that same.
The Doors are dead - Long Live the Doors!!!
Vince
Road Manager
The Doors
Road Manager
The Doors
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rokritr
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Well, obviously, I don't know what happened, and Frank or you, or most everyone still alive doesn't know what happened. Frank was just putting forth this possibility (not one that attempts to paint some angelic portrait of Jim).Rockriter is picking up on a comment by Mr. L, that merely follows the party line.
There are many stories of Jim's respiratory health in Paris being a problem prior to his death. Chain smoking, being out of breath climbing stairs, etc. So it wouldn't be out of the realm of thought that he may have taken to asthmatic medicine, and no, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that a doctor in Paris wouldn't know Jim Morrison or his reputation as a heavy drinker.....did Jim die of a drug overdose? very possible, indeed. did he die of something along the lines of what frank described, also possible. who knows? none of us here, that's for sure.
as for Frank, I've known him for many years, and while he was obviously a close personal friend of Jim's, he's also not a sychophant who tries to paint a halo on the guy....never hesitating to note that Jim could act like an "a-hole" at times.
The biggest problem, it would seem, is that even if Jim did 20 outrageous things, as noted in a biography, that would account for maybe a total of one full day in a 27 year period. And too many fans believe that those 20 outrageous moments encapsulate a person's entire lifestyle. I believe you even noted somewhere on this forum that a vast majority of the time that you dealt with him, Jim was a quiet, sensitive and thoughtful human being......but the Myth is that he was partying every single waking moment of his life, as the Stone celluloid debacle would have us believe.
I recall that Frank included an interview with you in his excellent book, "Feast Of Friends"......probably the one book that does the best job of presenting Jim Morrison the Man vs. Jim Morrison the Myth......no easy task, but I felt a slightly better understanding of Morrison as just a guy after reading that book vs. him being some bigger-than-life icon.
Considering that Jim's professional life with the Doors was his job and only one aspect of his identity......Don't you think that people like Frank and Babe Hill have a valuable insight to just who Jim Morrison was as a person outside the confines of his musical career, which wasn't exactly a 24/7 job?
Just curious of your thoughts on that?
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Estella
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Please, excuse me if any of my questions sound naive. I know they probably do, but I’ve got very little knowledge of the specific facts. I’d like to understand, anyway!
Through the years, I’ve often read that Jim was disgusted by Pam’s addiction to heroin, which was a drug he wasn’t on (though taking several others, beside drinking).
Is any of that true?
Through the years, I’ve often read that Jim was disgusted by Pam’s addiction to heroin, which was a drug he wasn’t on (though taking several others, beside drinking).
Is any of that true?
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vince
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Heroine
Jim was possibly disgusted by her habit however, he supported it
Eventually he became a participant as would be expected of one who is an alcohol addict. That is the usual progression
Perhaps you can understand the final days from the present posting herein. I think enoughhas been said. There is also a posting that is a revealation by Alan who was supposedly "There" right after Pam discovered Jim in the tub.
Thank you for making the Forum a success
Eventually he became a participant as would be expected of one who is an alcohol addict. That is the usual progression
Perhaps you can understand the final days from the present posting herein. I think enoughhas been said. There is also a posting that is a revealation by Alan who was supposedly "There" right after Pam discovered Jim in the tub.
Thank you for making the Forum a success
Vince
Road Manager
The Doors
Road Manager
The Doors